Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Tuesday, May 29, 2007

Premillennialism from the pulpit!!

I just got done listening to a sermon preached by my pastor, Philip De Courcy. He is a native of Belfast, Ireland who has been serving at our church for several years now. John and I really love him and support him.

He preached this message back in 2005 and you can listen to it, too, by going to this web page:
Sermons Online from Emmanuel Baptist Church’s Media Page

Look at the menu on the left and find the title of the series “The Day After Tomorrow.”
Then, you will see a list of all the messages from that series. The one I just listened to is
November 13, 2005
Taking Sides - Part 1
Revelation 20:1-6.
It is near the bottom.

I am going to continue on and listen to part 2 and 3. Maybe I will post a quote or two from those as I listen to them. This particular message that I am directing you to is great; I am so enthused about it! De Courcy explains Amillennialism, Post-millennialism and Pre-millennialism. He even uses the word 'Chiliasm'! He gives a good "fly-over" on the subject of the Millennium and the differing views.

Here are few quotes:

“This emerged as a viewpoint in the third, fourth and fifth century. The earliest proponent of this is Augustine. This was the predominant view of the Roman Catholic church in the dark ages and even as Protestantism emerged, most of the formers didn’t shed that perspective. So Calvin, Luther and Zwingly continued to embrace [it].”

"The OT promises were given to an earthly people: the seed of Abraham and the house of David and the Israelite people who lived within clearly defined borders that God had enunciated back in the book of Genesis. I believe that God will keep those promises and they cannot be fulfilled in the church - which is a spiritual entity made up of Jews and gentiles."

"My view … dispensational futuristic pretribulational premillennialism is the most consistent in applying the general hermeneutics that I use everywhere else in the Bible. I don’t need a special set of rules to interpret prophecy. I use the same rules that yield my doctrine of Christ, my doctrine of the HS, my doctrine of the church and my doctrine of last things."

"As I read even a passage like Romans 11, Paul says, “Has God cast away Israel?” Paul says no… Israel is in blindness until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The deliverer will come out of Zion and then all Israel will be saved.
Bar one or two exceptions in a host of uses, the word Israel in the NT refers to - you’ll be surprised at this - Israel."

Why not give it a listen?


  • Good to see a strong Premillennial message coming through.

    A good question to ask him would be how he squares his hermeneutic with the New Covenant. Is that only to do with Israel? And if not, what are the implications for other prophetic passages?

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 5/29/2007 12:35 PM  

  • That would be a great question.
    Did you listen to the message or just read the quotes?

    By Blogger Rose~, at 5/29/2007 2:48 PM  

  • BTW, I don't always make it to church on Sunday night and that is how I was not in the hearing when this message was originally preached. I had heard much of it later on a CD that John picked up, but as of late, this particular series holds a particular importance to me. So it had a big impact on me.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 5/29/2007 2:49 PM  

  • I am afraid I just read the quotes.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 5/29/2007 5:56 PM  

  • Thanks Rose, I'm downloading them now and will probably listen on Wednesday. Sounds like an interesting read....


    By Anonymous Shawn, at 5/29/2007 8:47 PM  

  • interesting sermon I mean.

    By Anonymous Shawn, at 5/29/2007 8:48 PM  

  • Good post Rose,
    I have been helped along a great deal by Dispensationalists. I am glad you are posting on it a bit.

    Hi Matthew,
    You have raised that question before. I am not sure how I feel about that one. What is your view?

    Hi Shawn I think you will like Pastor DeCourcy’s homiletic and hermeneutics ;-)

    In Christ,

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 5/30/2007 7:02 AM  

  • Hello Rose.

    John, The New Covenant is for Israel, not the church. If the New Covenant also involves the church, then we have a basis for the kind of dual hermeneutic that Progressive Dispensationalists use. That is why Bobby Grow likes to bring up the New Covenant.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 5/30/2007 9:03 AM  

  • Wow! Say What Matt? Did I miss something you all in all this dispy talk?

    Man I can follow some dispy stuff but not if I am talking myself out of the New Covanent. I must be a bit closer to what Bobby believes.

    By Anonymous bhedr, at 5/30/2007 7:15 PM  

  • Rose,

    Not all Classic Dispensationalists think the same way Matthew does.

    The New Covenant is primarily for Israel, and is yet to be fulfilled in its fullest expression (Note in Jer 31 that sinlessness is a result).

    According to the greater revelation of the New Testament concerning the New Covenant, we see that the church has a share in some of its blessings: regeneration and justification.

    The New Covenant will someday be in force with the entire nation of Israel. But this is not the same as saying it will be in force only with them. Every person who has ever been eternally saved, regardless of racial origin, has been saved under the promises of the New Covenant. That is, they have been saved on the basis of the blood of the New Covenant that Christ shed for them. They have become the beneficiaries of God’s New Covenant.

    I will agree with Matthew that the New Covenant is for Israel (and Israel and the Church must stay completely distinct!), but even Matthew must acknowledge that the church is united to the Mediator of the New Covenant.


    By Blogger Antonio, at 5/30/2007 11:39 PM  

  • Rose,

    I'm excited to listen to it Rose, but haven't yet because of some huge testing going on a big development project I am currently working on. I hope my brain will be working good enough to listen on Thursday at work.

    Now that we are talking about Dispensationalism. I read this quote on Grace For Life of a quote from Vossed World.

    The question of the day. Are non-dispensationalists too focused on types and shadows in the old testament or would this be the correct reading of the old testament. I tend to read the old testament in this manner and wonder how my dispensational friends read it as well.

    “...Learn your Old Testaments. See Christ therein. See His great glory there. We study the Old Testament so that we will see the variegated glories of Christ shining through their pages. We do not read them as Jews. We do not read them as though we were a synagogue. We read them as Christians. We see Christ in them because He is in them. We do so because Christ taught that He was in them. We do so because the New Testament saw Christ in them. So while the Old Covenant itself fades, its remaining glory to be seen by believing and un-veiled hearts is the very glory of Christ.

    "May we be transformed by seeing the glory of Christ all through the Bible. The transforming power of beholding Christ emerges from the pages of the whole Bible. We are transformed from glory to glory as we see Him there. Want to grow and change? Want to reflect Christ to others? Gaze on Him in the pages of your Bible.”

    By Anonymous Shawn, at 5/30/2007 11:46 PM  

  • Perhaps the most preeminent and venerable delusion today is that the New Covenant was promised to a Gentile church. Contrary to the myth perpetuated by Origin, Chrysostom, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and the winds of doctrine that currently abound, Jeremiah has literally hard-coded the primary recipients:

    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah : Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

    And this is confirmed virtually verbatim after He poured out the New Covenant in His blood:

    Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more (Hebrews 8:8-12).


    By Blogger Christian, at 5/31/2007 3:37 AM  

  • Good morning, Rose

    'but even Matthew must acknowledge that the church is united to the Mediator of the New Covenant.'

    True, O Antonio

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 5/31/2007 4:04 AM  

  • rose, I really need a new computer. mine shuts down when I try listening to sermons. think God is trying to tell me something? selahV

    By Anonymous selahV, at 5/31/2007 5:55 PM  

  • It seems we have more and more doctrine in common. There's just that one little thing that we part ways on.

    Our assistant pastor is also from Northern Ireland.

    On the off-chance that we're ever travelling through your area on a Sunday, I think we will visit your church.

    Hey, it could happen, we drive west to visit Saskatchewan pretty regularly, and one time we did actually swing south of Lake Erie first.

    By Blogger BugBlaster, at 6/01/2007 9:59 PM  

  • Shawn, I am glad you will listen. Perhaps you will get to part 2 before me. :~) Your comment made me realize that I think I am seeing a recurring theme in the discussions I have had lately on this blog. An underlying theme. I think I have to do a post.

    I have not come to a comfortable position on that subject.

    I know - I read a paper by Zane Hodges. He did not take Matthew's view. It is so good to see you around and to read your comment. I am glad you left it. I need to come to a position on this soon.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 6/02/2007 9:17 AM  

  • Hello Christian,
    Thank you for your thoughts and for the Scripture that you left in your comment. I appreciate it.

    Hi Selah,
    I recommend Dell. We love our Dell. They have good offers and great warranties.

    Yes there is that one little thing ... :~)
    Make sure you tell us if you will be around NW Ohio and we can meet you! You would enjoy our church. We would even invite your family over to our house. If we could have Jeremy Weaver, we certainly would have you in! ;~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at 6/02/2007 9:21 AM  

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