Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Monday, May 07, 2007

Pronouns, Pronouns...

"Me and her were going to play on the playground."
My 9 year old daughter said this to me during a ride to the Art Museum on Saturday.
"She and I were going to play on the playground." I corrected her.

I explained to her the easy way to figure this out. You just say each pronoun on its own and see if it sounds right.
"I [was] going to play..."
"She [was] going to play."
It clicked. She got it.

Then, I explained to her that sometimes "me and her" would be the right words ... if they were the object in the sentence.
"AJ was mean to me and her."
"AJ was mean to me."
"AJ was mean to her."

At this point, my little girl said that it was funny how many different words can be used to mean a person when you don't use their names. Ah, yes. Then, I told her we could even say "us" in the above sentence.

"AJ was mean to us."

My daughter then said something that reminded me of the discussion I was having here last week about 2 Peter 3:8-9.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9

She said: "The only problem with saying us, mom, is that no one knows who you mean."

Hmmm... so if I said,
"AJ was mean to us"
.... it could mean all the girls, the whole school, everyone in your class or ... just you and your friend.

Interesting, these pronouns.


  • Good lesson.

    I think the 'us' in 2 Peter 3:8-9 seems to be distinct from the 'all' used in the same verse.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 5/08/2007 4:15 AM  

  • I suppose that's why context is so important. As in the case of 2 Peter 3:9, you'd have to go back to see who the 'us' is he's referring to. As I see it, 2 Peter 3:1(& 2) answers that.

    This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5/08/2007 2:44 PM  

  • Hi Gayla,
    You watched the video that the original post was about, eh? lol
    It is not so clear as that. Think about it Gayla, why would Peter say that God is longsuffering toward the elect?
    To imagine that this verse is saying that God is longsuffering only towards the “beloved” (Christians) and wants them to come to repentance so they won’t perish doesn’t make much orthodox sense at all. Are elect (in Christ) individuals in danger of perishing in the manner that is being spoken of here by Peter?

    By Blogger Rose~, at 5/08/2007 3:05 PM  

  • Rose, I was thinking your exact thoughts today while pondering this scripture. That's all I can say for now.

    By Blogger Dawn, at 5/08/2007 4:31 PM  

  • Hi Rose,

    I see everyone is assuming that perishing in 2 Peter 3:9 refers to hell. Nothing in the context of 2 Peter 3 bears out that interpretation. Peter referred to perishing earlier in verse 6, where people died (perished) in the flood in the days of Noah. The death here is physical. Of course, unbelievers are condemned to hell, but that is not the point of these verses.

    In verses 3-4, Peter warns his readers of scoffers in the last days who ridicule a Second Coming because they think the world has continued as is since the creation. In verses 5 and 6, Peter tells us that those scoffers willfully forget that God had already destroyed the world once in the Flood, so things have not always continued as is since the creation.

    In verse 7, Peter makes it clear that the post-flood Earth we are living on now is reserved for a fiery judgment. Verses 8 and 9 make it clear that no matter how long the Lord takes, his Second Coming and fiery judgment of the earth are guaranteed. The "us" of verse 9 is an obvious reference to all humanity - believers and unbelievers.

    Yet God is longsuffering and not willing that any, believer or unbeliever, should die physically, so he gives them ample time to repent in verse 9. The fact that he has withheld his fiery judgment for thousands of years since the Flood shows that He is longsuffering to all.

    In light of His return as a thief in the night and the fiery judgment He brings in verse 10, Peter urges believers to walk in a godly manner, looking for His return in verses 11 and 12. Believers are to avoid dying physically by walking in godliness.

    But even if believers walk in ungodliness, He gives them many chances to repent. If they don't, they will eventually die physically (cf. 1 John 5:16) and lose rewards at the Judgment Seat. Unbelievers are given many chances to repent as well. If they do not, they both die physically and are condemned to hell.

    In verse 14, Peter urges believers once again to look forward to God's righteous Kingdom and live in a godly manner, so that they will be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless. In verse 15, we read that the longsuffering of the Lord is salvation (deliverance). This is NOT a reference to eternal salvation. And in verse 17, Peter warns believers about being led away by the error of the wicked.

    Notice that believers have to be diligent to be found spotless and blameless in 3:14. They can be led away by the error of the wicked. Eternal life is a free gift, but being found spotless and receiving rewards takes diligence. Having eternal life does not guarantee that one will be found spotless. Colossians 1:21-23 make it clear that being found spotless is conditioned on continuing in the faith. Believe in Jesus for eternal life - and you have eternal life. Continue in the faith - and you will be found spotless. If you are not spotless, that does not change the fact that you have been eternally redeemed (Colossians 1:21).

    Back to the Flood. Surely some of the people who died in the flood were justifed people. They perished (died) in the flood, but you should expect to see them in the Kingdom.

    Matthew 24:13,22 make it clear that tribulation Christians need to endure to the end to be PHYSICALLY saved. Of course, this is not a blanket promise, as many faithful Christians are to be martyred. But for those Christians who are not martyred, if they endure, they will be physically delivered to stand at the Sheep/Goats Judgment in 25:31-46. Most unfaithful tribulation Christians will die in those days. The Sheep/Goats Judgment is a unique judgment in that there are no unfaithful Christians present. It is a judgment that divides faithful surviving believers from unbelievers.

    By Anonymous danny, at 5/09/2007 1:39 AM  

  • Also, let me add this. With the exception of 8 people, the whole world perished in the flood. So when you read that God is longsuffering toward "us", not willing that any should perish in verse 9, go back to verse 6. The whole world is in view in verse 9, as the whole world was in view in verse 6. Verse 9 is about physical death for persistent ungodliness, whether from believers or unbelievers.

    By Anonymous danny, at 5/09/2007 1:49 AM  

  • Danny,
    I am not assuming that, although I am sure it sounded like it from my comment to Gayla. I read Antonio's two links about that and I found them very convincing. I think maybe I will post a spot to them. My struggle is mainly over the actual words in the verse ... all, us and any. I think it weird to try and limit the application of these simple words and weave an extraordinary plot to fit into one's theology.

    DF, I meant to ask you yesterday: who do you think US is and who do you think ALL is? I am always so curious about your views. Thanks for saying "good lesson." I can teach my 9 year old some things when she will listen.

    Thanks for visiting, Dawn!

    By Blogger Rose~, at 5/09/2007 9:10 AM  

  • I think us is believers and the all is the rest of the world.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 5/10/2007 4:43 AM  

  • Interesting, Matthew. Vedddy interesting...

    By Blogger Rose~, at 5/11/2007 3:26 PM  

  • I could be wrong. Looks like Antonio takes a different view of that verse.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 5/11/2007 5:47 PM  

  • Some of my favorite friends are pronouns.

    Once one figures out a pronoun's antecedent, the context begins to make sense.

    By Blogger Joe, at 5/11/2007 9:20 PM  

  • Hey Joe,
    Thanks for the visit! Yes, antecedents are important. I guess confusion comes in when it is not clear who the a. is.
    Your new profile pic is really nice. :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at 5/19/2007 7:47 AM  

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