Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Tuesday, December 06, 2005

TULIP SERIES ... My Favorite Comments

(all these comments are on this subject and are from all my posts on TULIP except for two of them, which I have marked and which I read during this time. Some of them made me smile, others not, some I like because they are compliments :~) ... some are deep and others are just funny (to me) for one reason or another!)
No God is not glorified when people are punished in the Lake of Fire. He is glorified, when in His great wisdom, He devises a plan of salvation whereby He pays the debt for lost sinners and then Imputes His Son's righteousness to their account.

Or are you going to say that God is sovereign (in the Calvinistic, not biblical sense) only in the things you enumerate but He checks his sovereignty at the door when it comes to those He wills to go to hell?

Jonathan Moorhead: (made on Doxoblogy)
This brings to mind the Puritan notion that one does not truly understand the Gospel until he or she is willing to be damned for His glory. God is glorified through the damnation of sinners (sound Edwardsian?). Hence, the saints in heaven will glorify God for the attribute of His holy justice. The difficult thing to comprehend ... is the hypothetical situation of being in heaven and praising God for the damnation of your children or parents.

… double predestination. Let’s keep this for another discussion. This is under debate inside Calvinism.

Hi Rose,I'll bet you stay up late nights thinking about all the theology that must be swimming through your head. I just want to say that it's great to see the ways in which God is challenging you, and using you to minister through your blog. The things you, and others here, have shared, are very thought provoking!

If there can be no more sorrow in Heaven (because God has promised it) then I believe we won't know that certain loved ones aren't with us because of the choice GOD made. I believe that no one will be more grieved than God. Yet, herein is the mystery: why doesn't God save Himself from grief? He could, ya know. I don't understand the mystery.

J. Wendell:
Interesting post Rose, but may I say in a critical yet loving manner, that I felt it was a bit too long? It was a bit too long, but very valuable in getting to know where your head is at. BTW I didn't have time to read all the comments yet either. Wow! What a verbose group.

Where is Rose?

Following is a short article …

Yes, John Piper who says: " em faith.?<>(John Piper "TULIP: What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism...", pg 25) We must own up to the fact that our "final" salvation (not the present and immediate possesion of eternal life) is contingent on works... well you do the math. It would take Houdini to get out of that quote.

There's really no reason to challenge a translation unless you've seen something else, somewhere else in the Bible, that doesn't seem to click, and you're determined to look deeper until you find how the two can be reconciled.

J. Wendell:
Hi everyone! I want to add my silver dollar, but my two cents will have to do for now…

I totally agree. I was worried you might give us vague sentiemnts about divine mysteries and paradoxes, but I should have had more faith.You are so level-headed.

Interesting note on Blogging : Here's a quick thought wouldn't it be better to be in person and study this from the scripture.

If the Bible is God's revelation of His love for His creation and His plan for its redemption, and if we spread this thickly over whatever we are reading, we usually get it right.

“He that rejecteth Me …” If you reject, then someone has to give you something. How do you resist the Holy Ghost unless He is trying to give you something.

I suffer from The Healthy Blog Addiction of rr. I am a friend and do not intend to sound like I am angry. rr is part of my daily routine and shall continue to be so.
Sister Rose (any relation to the Cornelius brothers...oh,never mind, probably way before your time),

A good deal of the argument hinges on where faith originates from. I do not think the Calvinist premise that faith is purely a gift of God is very certain.

What a wonderful post, yet I am sure it will be a tempest in a teapot to many.

Rose, my apologies for being a big bag of wind.

John Babri:
Its good to someone trying to take a scriptural look at things. So many people just take their stand and go with it.

So the picture of God looking forward into time is as laughably myopic as it is naive. God doesn't look forward - He sees all time and space in the same glance.
Scripture supports the deterministic view over the permissive view … notwithstanding, my everyday life demonstrates that I have free will to do whatever I want.

If we cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just that it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.

What I have difficulty with is how many people hold different viewpoints so vehemently! It's my way or the highway. It's "surely someone as bright as you can see that I'm right."

Awesome post. This one is good. I should we keep it.

The church we left had a large board up on the wall in the sanctuary one year listing everyone who had made a decision for Christ either at the altar, through visitation or whatever.

Wow, gone for a few days, working overtime, and I see that a book has grown up here in comments. Fascinating discussion. Now I'm away for the holidays.

Shawn, thanks, but being English I was not planning on celebrating thanksgiving.

John Babri:
With out election and universal offer of the Gospel means that there is a potential that none would come to Christ. That is a lot more limited than a God who has a potential to save all but can’t because people do not come to him versus a God who certainly saves those who he draws near to himself.

My brother Pat: (from an email)
If the Calvinists are right, it is almost as if everyone else in the world were just extras on a movie set in which the chosen were the stars of the film, but didn’t know it.

… fact is they are both right, just as Paul and Barnabas were both right.

Rose, please forgive me for being so confrontational, but we speak of things of eternal significance. Every Blessing in Christ …

I do wonder though if some of you indeed understand what Shawn, Blue Collar, Antonio etc. understand. It is impotant in the sense that we see Who is doing the work. I am unsure that their side of the coin is grasped by some.

Note : sorry so long everyone. I'm a total nutcase when it comes to talkative and passionate, but hey wouldn't it be so much better in a bible study session together.

Here in sleeps the mystery but it must, muuuusssssst be accepted. Now please, pleeeaaase go to this passage ….

I cannot say I care what Westminster, the Canon of Dort and Luther say. I want to follow the Word of God.

I think your blog is taking on a life of it's own! :o)

Why do people come here and some of them don't even say "hi" to me? (and they don't comment on my post)

The string of comments here, while very interesting, is why I am NOT Calvanist or any other kind of "ist."

Pssssssssst! I was just thinking (sometimes wish I could stop. My wife does too.)

I think that when it all comes down to it we are like claymation. You know, Gumby and Pokey. God owns our lives and He can do anything He wants with us. He can flatten us and remake us. After He saved us we will always be with Him, no matter what goes on.

Sigh! … Thank you Rose for yeilding this space.

I don't like being labeled a calvinist as well because I more would rather be known as an electionist or closer to some guy who just loves the bible

Your posting is full of many thought provoking points and excellent, searching questions, as usual. Sophistry from Spurgeon, I never thought I’d see the day!

I have a friend who is a Five-Pointer. We preached together on Saturday. He told the crowds that Christ did not die for everyone …

Rose, did you ever have the time to read the article? Here is the link:

I think we should be open to challenging some of our more fundamental assumptions.

Rose says: If a person asked you, “Did he [Jesus] die for me?” What do you say to that person? … I wouldn't answer such a question because it is a theological trap.

We all agree I hope that it is a dangerous and careless thing to take a snippet out of the entire context of the bible and inflate it with our own preconceived opinions such that the snippet, in isolation teaches something foreign or contrary to the remainder of scripture. Surely we all agree this is so.

Rose, you had a question, but I'm out of time. Long day at the ranch with lots of runnaway cattle -- so to speak. Perhaps I'll get to it soon.

Rose said: you admit that you can't grab hold of God's mind. Thanks Rose and that is where I would like to stay rather then to venture off into the deep waters assuming I am prepared for them when Methane Bubbles are awaiting me

Think this through - chew on it for a while - if the atonement is not limited, does election make any sense at all?

It really is futile to talk about "atonement", as it is not even a New Testament word (not found anywhere in the New Testament). Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the world and He, as the lamb of God, took away the sins of the world.

Rose -- that you for your accommodation to us weird Reformed people with your definitions :o). I really appreciate what you're doing.

Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say?

Rose, this has been very interesting. Your posts, as always, are very well thought out.

You've done an excellent job in this post, you're really a very profound thinker.

The wide awake man upon falling out a window manages to grab a curtain and thereby pull himself back inside - has not been "saved by the curtain" - but has merely used the curtain to save himself.

The power is in his hand to convert with irresistible grace but do we weep and pray for the lost? That is the question. I am beginning to convict myself, so I better stop and go pray.

More later one of my kids fell off a chair.......

Rose ~ I can't call you a heretic unless you imagine that Pelagianism is consistent with Christianity. ;-)


I am speechless. But wait ...

If I sound obstinate or purposely contrary, I don't mean to be.

Daniel I very much respect your view. I love my Father in heaven because He first loved me, but my love is a reaction to His love. As a man finds a woman and goes after her and woo her. She can fall in love with him or not.

Jonathan Moorhead:
Rose, do you have the reference for:"[Grace is] 'the holy rape of the soul' -Jonathan Edwards"? Thanks!

People on both sides of this debate quote verses as if the other side are going to say 'Oh, I never read that before. You guys must be right.'

I do not consider myself any one of the "ists" except for ChrISTian!

You may be better off than me about time but I'm trying to state my beliefs.

Temporary faith. What a can of worms.

Again I read with interest but this time my heart won’t let me be silent.

We adopted a little girl. When she was four, she misbehaved. We sent her back to the adoption agency. She seemed to straighten out so we adopted her agian.

I'm not writing this to depress anyone. More later.. especially in the warnings verses

Rose, Can I ask you three questions?

Dear friends let us look to the truth and seek after it instead of prove theology. We cannot seize what belongs to God alone.

So much heartache and trouble would be avoided if this rule of hermeneutics was strictly adhered to

I hope you don't mind my jumping in. This is an interesting topic.

I can smell Covenant theology.

From the moment we are saved, until the moment our flesh is redeemed we will live in tension - if we obey the flesh, the spirit is grieved, if we obey the Spirit, we must overcome our carnal resistance to do so - either way, no matter what we do, it is a struggle and always will be.

Do I know I am saved? Yes, because I am absolutely confident that He gave His life for me and rose from the dead so that I might have life. I know that I am dead to sin and risen with Christ. These facts are my ground of assurance.">And here is the rest of it.


  • Rose, there are a lot of good thoughts there. I bet that took more than 5 mintues to put together.

    P.S.- I will forgive you for misspelling my last name.

    By Blogger Jonathan Moorhead, at 12/06/2005 5:53 PM  

  • Jonathan, what do you mean? ;~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/06/2005 6:08 PM  

  • Rose,

    Although I am but a newbie to the culture and high class society of bloggerdom, I have to say that these posts and comments are somewhat historic in proportion.

    If I were you, I would burn all these posts and comments onto a couple of cds and bury one in a time capsule and send the other off as a message in a bottle.


    By Blogger Antonio, at 12/06/2005 6:13 PM  

  • E.M. Bounds said it the best about our lifes even if we don't agree

    The certainty of heaven is assured when we keep Jesus in the center of our hearts, in the center of our lives. He is to be the author of impulse and desire, of effort and action. "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus." Does He draw you heavenward? Is it to be with Him that you seek heaven? Is He the fairest flower in all its garden? Is He the rarest and most precious of all its jewels? Is He sweeter than all its songs?

    Then He's first in your life and your are my brother or sister .

    Thank You Sis

    By Blogger forgiven, at 12/06/2005 7:56 PM  

  • reveiwing the too cooments yuo posted that came from me made me realize i need two do mor proof reading b4 i post

    By Blogger John, at 12/06/2005 11:33 PM  

  • Cool I'm the idiot computer programmer who doesn't have much good to say but "I like to meet with people and study the bible" or "let's do lunch" or "cracking toast gromit" or "my kid fell of of the chair, I better go" or "I'm going to write about my kids falling off the chain instead of catching them or taking care of them because I like to blog more than take care of my kids"

    You got some great quotes and mine were pretty funny, because I sound like the guy that keeps everyone angry and only says dumb things. Kind of glad no one is really listening anyway. ;-)))

    By Blogger Shawn L, at 12/06/2005 11:50 PM  

  • Thanks for those, Rose~

    These discussions have been the most fun discussions of theology I have ever had.

    God Bless


    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 12/07/2005 3:50 AM  

  • You actually quoted ME?! Wow! And I thought it all was circular filed.

    By Blogger bluecollar, at 12/07/2005 6:48 AM  

  • I really loved reading those. Especially mine.

    Actually, that was a very good synopsis of what has been said.

    And a faster read, too.

    By Blogger Joe, at 12/07/2005 6:56 AM  

  • Those are some great thoughts by blogdoms finest.

    By Blogger Jeremy Weaver, at 12/07/2005 8:36 AM  

  • Shawn,
    I was not trying to paint you as a buffoon! I'm sorry if it seems that way. Those just happened to be my favorites of your comments.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/07/2005 9:48 AM  

  • Rose I know. ;-) I was hoping we would have a little laughter after such seriousness for so long..............

    I was trying to paint myself as a buffoon.

    By Blogger Shawn L, at 12/07/2005 1:49 PM  

  • Rose,
    on the subject of TULIP you have truly made me proud, but...

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 12/07/2005 10:30 PM  

  • Sister Rose,
    Settle one question for me please:

    The Calvinist "friend" you mentioned through out your posts... His initials wouldn't happen to be John W. Cole would they????????? I'm prepaired to laugh hysterically!!!!

    By Blogger bluecollar, at 12/07/2005 11:44 PM  

  • Mark,
    Early on I have indicated that when I first heard of TULIP from a friend of J. Wendell's, it was my husband who told me that he was a 4-pointer (that was ten years ago). He then tried to help me understand it. I think I have said "friend" in a couple of the posts, but yes, I meant him, but was not trying to be tricksy about it. ;~) ... laugh away!!

    What I find interesting is that nobody has asked me who I was quoting in several of my posts when I would say "one of my favorite Calvinists says ..." or "one person says"...

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/08/2005 10:58 AM  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger bluecollar, at 12/08/2005 12:12 PM  

  • Mark,
    I don't know what you are talking about at Antonio's blog.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/08/2005 12:30 PM  

  • Rose,

    Sweet you like Pilgrim's Progress too? I love that book and read it all of the time, however changed version.

    By Blogger Shawn L, at 12/08/2005 1:17 PM  

  • Hi Rose!

    I would hope your favorite Calvinist would be you husband John :)

    Emmanuel is having church on Christmas Day?! Haven't they consulted with all the best mega-churches in the country and decided that it's all about the tree and the family? We can't be inconvenienced by attending church on Sunday morning, why, there's presents to be opened!

    Just kidding :)

    By Blogger mas, at 12/08/2005 1:44 PM  

  • Hi Shawn, yes I like PP. I have loved it ever since the year I was saved.

    It was "ONE" of my favorite Calvinists not THE absolute favorite one. Besides, why is every one so sure that my husband is a Calvinist? ;~)

    I figured out where I made that declaration:


    You are so keen ... nothing gets by you!

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/08/2005 1:50 PM  

  • So will you reveal the Calvinist's secret identity?

    I noticed J. W. Cole hasn't posted lately. What's up with that?

    By Blogger mas, at 12/08/2005 2:04 PM  

  • Hi Rose,

    MAS, W-O-R-K! This is the most demanding time of year for Letter Carriers ... the weather takes it right out of me too. I get home from work around 6:30-6:45 p.m. to a hungry family who have waited for Daddy get home before they eat.

    It seems the demands are huge for school kids too. Rose has been working with each of our three needy children with homework at night. Then, one night, I thought I would help a little... I started helping my oldest with more than just speling words... I discovered that I enjoy this so much. I feel more connected to Elliot and his cirriculum and we have a good time together. We usually finish this around 9:00. I put the kids to bed with the Word and prayer.

    I don't like being pigeon-holed, so I guess I will just say that it really depends on what one means by the word "Calvinist" whether that describes me or not. Where John Calvin held to biblical doctrine, I would agree with him. Where he erred, I would part ways with him. Clear as mud, huh?

    By Blogger J. Wendell, at 12/09/2005 9:51 AM  

  • In other news : Most people wonder what usefulness this theology does for you. My wife's favorite flower is a tulip. All of this discussion helps me remember what some of my wife's favorite flower is. How's that for application?

    By Blogger Shawn L, at 12/09/2005 10:09 AM  

  • Shawn, did you buy her any? Though they are probably pretty pricey this time of year.

    j.wendell, I forgot that was what you do! My brother-in-law is a mail carrier too. My son always makes sure he shovels a path for our mail carrier but I think that we are in the minority with that. I am looking forward to hearing what the "ist" parts of your posts.

    By Blogger mas, at 12/09/2005 10:26 AM  

  • No comment on the comments. I don't like the way I read.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at 12/09/2005 6:43 PM  

  • Better late than never...

    Regarding the "holy rape of the soul", after some research, the Wikipedia has been corrected with the following:

    "Jonathan Edwards has sometimes been quoted—notably by R. C. Sproul—as referring to the irresistible call of God as the "holy rape of the soul," but the phrase does not appear in Edwards' Works. Instead, the phrase seems to have been coined by Puritan scholar Perry Miller, and most Calvinists distance themselves from it."

    Let us not cast aspersions on Jonathan Edwards for something he did not say.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5/09/2006 9:27 AM  

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