Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Friday, July 20, 2007

Round and Round

Does anyone remember this song?

Hello Goodbye
You say yes, I say no
You say stop and I say go, go, go
Oh, no
You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye I say hello
I say high, you say low

You say why, and I say I don't know
Oh, no
You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye I say hello
Why, why, why, why, why, why

Do you say good bye
Goodbye, bye, bye, bye, bye
Oh, no

You say goodbye and I say hello
Hello, hello I don't know why you say goodbye I say hello
Hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye I say hello
hello, hello
I don't know why you say goodbye I say
hello Hello

I was listening to this song on the radio the other day. It reminded me of the blogosphere deabtes. Sometimes when discussing rigid predeterminism vs. election contingent on faith in Christ or ...... lordship salvation vs. free grace salvation, I feel very frustrated. It seems like we can't make any progress toward becoming of one mind.


  • I like the way you think Rose :) To me all that song reminds me of is Target, oh wait, that's their marketing stategy. They spell it goodbuy but I think it's goodbye to the merchandise, hello money!

    By Blogger mas, at 7/20/2007 11:47 AM  

  • The title of this post reminds me of a song I used to listen to circa 1983 or 84 by a band called Ratt:

    Round and Round
    our love will find a way just give it time.
    Round and Round.
    what comes around goes around.

    Jesus' love will find a way, just give it time (which may be the judgment seat of Christ for those who preach LS, and possibly the Great White Throne Judgment).

    By Blogger Antonio, at 7/20/2007 7:48 PM  

  • Ha ha Antonio, I think you just proved Rose's point.

    I think as long as theologians carry more clout than the Word of God, we will always have division. And then, even our stubborn wills and untransformed minds will cloud the truth.

    Unity is in Christ first and foremost.

    By Blogger Jim, at 7/20/2007 10:58 PM  

  • Never mind, Rose. At least some of us see things the way you do.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 7/21/2007 5:17 AM  

  • Good morning Rose

    Whichever side in any debate which is promoting truth need not despair, because truth will always be vindicated in the end and any labour which is done in the Lord will not be in vain. Excuse my rigid determinism (as you call it) on that last one :-)

    Antonio: I thought (not sharing your great illumination)that those at the Great White Throne were beyond redemption and therefore "Jesus' love" will not "find a way" presumably to bring them into the truth of the FG gospel,as defined by the Bible.

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 7/21/2007 6:10 AM  

  • Mary,
    Oh yea, I think I have heard it on a Target commercial. Have you noticed that a lot of old Beatles songs have been popping up lately? John and I chuckle every time we hear one and say "cha-ching for Michael Jackson." If we are correct, he owns the rights to all of their songs - so now he is making money every time one of them is used. His own music career is over, but he is still raking it in.

    It was a hair band - big blond hair guys, wasn't it? I think I remember that song. Did you know that some theologians don't see different judgements like you mention? I just realised this recently - I figured all Bible readers saw the Bema Seat and the Great White Throne Judgement as distinct. Then again, I always thought a Thousand Years was really a Thousand Years. :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at 7/21/2007 10:21 AM  

  • Hi Jim!
    Long time no see. I did get a chuckle when I opened these comments this morning. First I saw Antono's, then your's and then Goodnight's. Proving my point indeed. Thanks for your insightful comment. Very very insightful.

    Hello Goodnight,
    Hmmmm... that sounds almost like the song! Good morning to you as well. The thing I despair over is the lack of understanding or even consideration, that I see in others and myself at times.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 7/21/2007 10:24 AM  

  • the beatles in "67" paul wrote this one ,,,Hello Goodbye

    Paul's friend, Alistair Taylor who was visiting McCartney, asked Paul one day how he wrote his many songs, and how he came up with his ideas. Paul took him into his dining room to give him a demonstration of his hand-carved harmonium. As an experiment, Paul asked Taylor to shout out the opposite of whatever he sang, such as black and white, yes and no, hello and goodbye, etc. From this, the song was born. Lennon hated the song, and viewed it as an inconsequential song of McCartney's, saying it was "three minutes of contradictions and meaningless juxtapositions." What further infuriated Lennon was that his "I Am The Walrus," was issued as the B-side to McCartney's A-side Hello Goodbye.

    this was when i was unsaved you know the 60"s and 70's MAS your RIGHT ON!! GROOVY whoops a little 60's there :-D.. everything is about the cold hard cash,,

    sorry Rose.. to put the non christian portion into your message ...

    By Blogger senior pgadreamer, at 7/21/2007 10:46 AM  

  • Hey, Chris,
    I am a great big Beatles 'fan', so how is that for "non-christian"? Hey thanks for the trivia. Too bad about that Walrus.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 7/21/2007 10:53 AM  

  • You know Rose, this is gonna sound real silly, but this post brings back a skit on the Benny Hill Show to my mind! Remember the naughty Englishman, Benny Hill? Anyway, he and this lady who I suppose was supposed to be his wife, were watching a TV Show. You could not see the show, just the flickering lights the program produced. All you could see were their faces. When one of them would begin to laugh hysterically at the show, the other one would invariably begin to cry. Then, the one crying would cease crying & begin to laugh heartily while the one laughing would become melancholy & soon be crying! For some reason that stuck in my mind. I certainly don't watch Benny Hill anymore, but it's interesting what sticks in your mind, isn't it?

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at 7/21/2007 9:57 PM  

  • AMEN!!!!

    I personally weary of all the debate! But I guess someday we'll all see the LORD and it will be crystal clear and it won't matter anymore that we all could agree down here!!! I'm glad God has all the answers!!!

    Your sister in Christ...angela

    By Blogger Angela, at 7/21/2007 10:33 PM  

  • Rose thats way i didn't want to put down what thought as now we have benny hill here on the comments my purpose was to see how the song started and how it came to form.. its funny how we can remember a song or words from a song and we can't remember a verse from the Bible.. lets get back to the christian theme.i like to put a little humor here but let us not get off track on what its all about.. Christ!!

    By Blogger senior pgadreamer, at 7/22/2007 10:19 AM  

  • [Sometimes when discussing rigid predeterminism vs. election contingent on faith in Christ or ...... lordship salvation vs. free grace salvation, I feel very frustrated.]
    One point of frustration is being labeled in an unfair way. That is a big reason why these discussions can get so emotional. Calvinism is not 'rigid determinism' even though hyper-Calvinism might be described that way. It is important to not confuse the two or else it is another "straw man" argument which we all get upset about.

    I heartily agree with your point that we should not let these differences divide us as brothers and sisters in Christ. We have the great commision from the Lord himself to take the gospel to a lost and dying world. We are united in Christ and should love one another, strengthen one another in the battle against the world, flesh and devil, and seek to edify one another. God hates the "them and us" mentality of a party spirit.
    C. H. Spurgeon describes the view of God's grace in salvation. It is not rigid determinism. It is being wooed and drawn by cords of lovingkindness in such a way that we come most willingly, hungering and thirsting and seeking Him with our whole hearts. I can relate to C. H. Spurgeon's story below. I came from a non Christian family and was not saved until after I was married. My husband's family had a great part in my salvation. I was reading New Age books and was totally repulsed by Christianity and the things of God, but God did a mighty work in me and changed my hard heart into a heart that could know and love Him.
    Spurgeon quote: I did not commence my spiritual life—no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me—warnings were cast to the wind—thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady—
    "Grace taught my soul to pray,
    And made my eyes o'erflow;"

    and coming to this moment, I can add—
    "'Tis grace has kept me to this day,
    And will not let me go."

    Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."

    By Anonymous VA ~Susan, at 7/22/2007 3:15 PM  

  • Senior PGA Dreamer, you are exactly right. I apologize for the Benny Hill reference. It's been years since I watched that stuff, but I appreciate your point.

    Angela, I concur with you!

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at 7/22/2007 4:05 PM  

  • David,
    I remember Benny Hill, of course! I still can picture that impish look on his face and the way he would lightly, repeatedly and rapidly slap that little old man on the bald head. (I do that to my kids!)

    I am so glad too that He has all the answers. I am looking forward to that day, sister!

    No worries. I won't change my blog header to include lyrics from the Beatles or include any photos of the naughty Benny Hill - that is not what I am about. Thanks. :~)

    Yes, my description of the debate was loaded, wasn't it? Ah - you caught me. I see it as "rigid determinism" but you wouldn't characterise yourself that way. I should have been more polite? I am sorry. Thanks so much for your input!

    By Blogger Rose~, at 7/23/2007 2:07 PM  

  • Rose, thanks! And thanks again for your post concerning how you feel about thangs (as we say in NC!). That has liberated me in a way you cannot believe. You're a blessing sister.

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at 7/23/2007 9:06 PM  

  • Thanks for understanding, Rose. I know you did not say that to be purposely offensive. You are a very gracious lady.

    By Anonymous VA ~Susan, at 7/23/2007 10:44 PM  

  • Rose: hello, I think you have it right. the arguments seem the same, just different illustrations and voices. consensus says we will probably never be of one mind except maybe that Jesus is God's only begotten Son and through Him we are saved. And for that I am grateful. selahV

    By Anonymous selahV, at 7/26/2007 4:58 PM  

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