Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Friday, December 28, 2007

An Old Snippet From Bobby Grow

I had this in my drafts folder from 2005.
Bobby had this on one of his old blogs.
I miss Bobby. Don't you?

Theologia Crucis:
This is the wrong emphasis in salvation. The biblical framework of soteriology is built upon unconditional accomplishments, not a conditional covenant. An important consequence of current day nomism/Lordship Salvation/hyper-Calvinism, is that the Calvinist/Nomist concept of perseverance of the saints/and Arminian/Pelagian concept of "losing salvation" can be reduced to the same functional understanding. They are both based upon a concept of the "Law" that is thoroughly conditional in nature. Thus the outworking of this is seen as these two theological constructs constantly are absorbed by individual ethical performance (thus proving their election) and the resultant emphasis upon man's work in salvation, rather than elevating and magnifying the work of Christ in salvation.


  • Rose,

    Excellent commentary and reminder.

    Why is Bobby not around?

    In Christ eternally,


    By Anonymous ExPreacherMan, at 12/28/2007 10:22 AM  

  • Hello Rose,

    This a great comment by Bobby. I think someone made similiar comments to the people in Galatia.:)

    In fact this person said several times in different letters to "walk in a manner worthy" but for some reason he didn't follow these words up with 'so that you will know you are elect' or 'so that you will not lose your salvation'.

    In fact he precluded these words with making sure his readers understood that they were under grace and not law.

    Have a blessed New Year

    By Blogger Kris, at 12/28/2007 11:30 AM  

  • Hi Rose

    Bobby stated it very well!

    Zane Hodges made this statement:
    From the Reformed perspective of course genuine entrance into the Redeemed Community only occurs when the entering faith results in the necessary good works.

    I believe these manmade systems lead to the same end.

    Proverbs 14:12
    There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

    They don’t believe in the unconditional love of God and that He would truly give a free gift!

    But this flies into the face of the Word of God!

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever DESIRES, let him take the water of life FREELY.
    (emphasis mine)

    blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at 12/28/2007 3:46 PM  

  • Hi Rose I thought these points that Zane made were very good for this discussion but if you don’t please remove this post. Thanks alvin

    Question to Zane

    Are you saying that faith will at least be manifested externally at some point in the life?

    Would you like to elaborate on that a little?
    But I will!
    This is closely related to the long running question is there such a thing as a believer who never ever does anything as a result of his faith. My answer to that, what I’ve gone on record as saying is. I don’t think there is any such thing as a believer who never ever does anything at all as a result of their faith, but I CAN NOT PROVE IT FROM SCRIPTURE. SO IT CANNOT BE A FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE. But even if a person does one or two things as a result of their faith that is certainly not grounds for assurance of salvation. And the really important issue is that WORKS ARE NOT INDESPENSIBLE TO AN ASSURANCE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHAT IS INDESPENSIBLE TO THAT IS THE PROMISE OF GOD AND OUR CONVICTION THAT, THAT PROMISE IS TRUE.

    Question: Can we ever be sure of anyone else’s salvation (regeneration)? If so based on what?

    1 John 5:1 says, Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
    And it says it in the context where it’s trying to identify the brother we are to love. I think that has to be understood in the light of Johannine theology. But to believe that Jesus is the Christ is to believe that He is the One who gives eternal life to the person who believes in Him. And personally I don’t think there are any grounds for doubting the salvation of anyone who says with understanding and sincerity says, “that is what I believe.”

    off to work i go!
    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at 12/28/2007 4:31 PM  

  • Hi Rose,

    thanks, I really appreciate the good word. I am typing this comment with my new voice recognition software. This is going to allow me to reenter the blogosphere, which I'm really excited about!

    You can find me at: http://theologyofbobby.wordpress.com

    It Is Called White to harvest.

    Anyway, there are a few bugs I am still working out with this software.

    By Blogger Bobby Grow, at 12/28/2007 5:25 PM  

  • Hi Jack,
    Bobby has tendonitis, I believe. But... for the sound of his comment below yours, that won't keep him down for long!

    Great comment! Thanks for your visits. :~)

    Thank you so much for your comments. I never saw the commonality between those two systems until blogging. It is uncanny.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/29/2007 1:41 PM  

  • Bobby!!
    A mention of your name and here you are! How lovely.
    That is realy exciting that you have been able to get the voice recognition software. I can't wait to check out your new blog.

    You are so REASONABLE and I need to expose myself more and more to people like you and less and less to unreasonableness.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/29/2007 1:42 PM  

  • Rose,

    I am a rebel. This is in response to your last post.

    Lou needs someone to drain him of his ---- and vinegar.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.


    PS: You are a sweet lady. Shame on Lou!

    By Blogger Antonio, at 12/29/2007 6:15 PM  

  • Hi Rose,

    Thanks again for the good word, it's good to be back . . . my blogging will probably be a little slower than it used to be, but nevertheless it is good to be back!

    By Blogger Bobby Grow, at 12/29/2007 8:36 PM  

  • Rose/John:

    I posted a note to you folks in the thread under my article about Jeremy Myers: The Heretic in Me

    See comment #61 12/30 @ 7:23am. Special note to Rose’s husband, John


    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 12/30/2007 8:58 AM  

  • Lou,
    John sent you an email Friday, December 28, 2007 5:56 PM.

    Did you not get it?

    Sometimes our ISP gets blocked, being a small-time ISP.

    He says to tell you that he has not gotten anything further from you since he sent that.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/30/2007 3:23 PM  

  • Rose:

    I sent John two very brief clarifying e-mails since the first. I just sent another e-mail. I trust it will be received.


    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 12/30/2007 7:00 PM  

  • Antonio:

    When I read your comment above, with the ---- 4 letter hidden expletive, these passages came immediately to mind.

    But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man,” (Matt. 15:18).

    Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be,” (James 3:10).


    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 12/30/2007 7:08 PM  

  • Lou, hopefully Antonio meant to say something nice, but could not think of the right words.

    At least I hope so.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 12/31/2007 2:07 PM  

  • Matthew:

    Antonio has previously demonstrated that he possesses a broad vocabulary. If Antonio “meant to say something nice,” he would have found the words.

    He used the words, including the hidden four letter expletive, because that is exactly what he wanted to convey.


    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 12/31/2007 3:10 PM  

  • The ----'s were euphemistically placed for the word "piss". Lou is full of piss and vinegar. It is a figurative expression in the American English language denoting someone who is visceral and vitriolic.

    The word itself is found several times in the Authorized Verson:

    1 Samuel 25:22
    22 So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

    1 Samuel 25:34
    34 For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

    1 Kings 14:10
    10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

    1 Kings 16:11
    11 And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends.

    1 Kings 21:21
    21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,

    2 Kings 9:8
    8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

    Lou is always so easily offended...

    1 Cor 13:4-5
    Charity suffereth long and... is not easily provoked

    By Blogger Antonio, at 12/31/2007 4:46 PM  

  • Matthew:

    You have your answer: Nothing nice intended.

    If the four letter expletive “figurative expression” was non-offensive, why did he use “----” in the first place?

    Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be,” (James 3:10).


    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 12/31/2007 5:45 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 12/31/2007 5:45 PM  

  • Rose:

    All done, see you next year.


    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 12/31/2007 5:47 PM  

  • Hi Rose

    you need to take your own advice!!!
    The scriptures you so quickly judge others with remember is a two edged sword.
    You have been told by more then one witness of your own short comings. Judgement needs to start with ones self that way we are not judged.

    blessings to all and a blessed New Year!!!

    By Blogger alvin, at 12/31/2007 8:34 PM  

  • I really like your new 'avatar', Rose~.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 1/01/2008 8:57 AM  

  • Antonio,

    You are way out of line to use that phrase about anyone, but especially to try to say that you use that phrase with Scriptural backing! I am appalled, and you should be ashamed. The verses you listed don't even come close to supporting your use of that phrase. Here's why:

    1) "pisseth against the wall" was simply a Hebrew idiom for "males". I'm sure you can figure out why.

    2) the word "piss[eth]" was not used negatively in those verses in any way. The only negative sense is that the man (the one who "pisseth against the wall") would have something negative done to him, but it had nothing to do with the word "piss" itself.

    3) just because a word is in the Bible doesn't mean that a phrase used today which contains that word is somehow acceptable. "Hell" is in the Bible, but that doesn't mean God's okay with me telling people to "go to hell" the way people do today. So you found the word "piss" in the Bible. In no way does that mean that God finds it acceptable for you to use the term in that way. Frankly, it gives the impression of a junior high boy giggling because he found the word "poop" in the Bible.

    4) the word "pisseth" in those verses is there in the KJV, but not modern translations. This is because the word "piss" did not carry the negative and slang connotations that it does today. Do you also use "ass" for people that bug you?

    I'm curious, after your lengthy articles on the judgment of Christians, do you see yourself getting a reward from God for that particular post?

    By Blogger Rachel, at 1/01/2008 4:29 PM  

  • Thank you, Matthew. :~) It is a painting by Vladimir Kush.

    Rachel, that comment made me laugh out loud.

    Frankly, it gives the impression of a junior high boy giggling because he found the word "poop" in the Bible.

    That is just so funny. Is the word "poop" in the Bible? hahaha

    Honestly, the phrase "full of piss and vinegar" was not lost on me. The man that led me to the Lord used to say that to me all the time. He would say "you young people are just full of piss and vinegar" with a smile on his face. I thought it was a sort of endeared phrase - because of how I heard him use it, with a smile. He is the only one I have ever heard use it.

    I would not have said that to Lou, though. Then agian, I would not have said to (and about) Antonio some of the things that Lou has said... or used the timing that Lou has with criticizing Antonio.

    But that is just me!

    By Blogger Rose~, at 1/02/2008 1:02 AM  

  • This post was supposed to be about BOBBY!

    By Blogger Rose~, at 1/02/2008 1:03 AM  

  • Rose,

    I think perhaps older people see/use the phrase in a lighter way, but most people today use it in a negative way. Certainly that is how Antonio intended it, and in fact he clearly considered it somewhat offensive as he originally left out the most offensive word.

    Beyond that, whether Lou should or shouldn't have said things to or about Antonio doesn't affect the fact that Antonio should not have made this comment. i'm pretty sure God won't be giving me a pass at the judgment seat for something bad I did just because someone else did something bad too. And to be honest, my last statement to Antonio was convicting to me also. It is always sobering to think of our words and actions in light of how we will be evaluated by Christ.

    Regarding the quote by Bobby in the article, I see a major difference between the works required by Arminians and the works "required" by Calvinists. Arminians require works before salvation, and most importantly, such works must be produced by the person. Calvinists "require" works after salvation, and most importantly, such works can only be produced by God. I hope you can see that the major difference here is in the one producing the works. Also, Arminians have works contributing to the person's salvation, i.e. works help someone earn or merit their salvation. Calvinists have works merely evidencing salvation, but not actually contributing in ANY WAY to the person receiving salvation.

    By Blogger Rachel, at 1/02/2008 11:13 AM  

  • Rachel, I think most Arminians would deny that they view works as contributing to salvation.

    However, I am willing to be instructed better by yourself if I am mistaken.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 1/02/2008 11:19 AM  

  • Are you feeling correct today, Rose?

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 1/02/2008 11:20 AM  

  • Rose,

    Happy New Year to you and John!!!

    The battle going on with Lou and the others is disheartening.

    Whatever happened to Eph. 4???

    1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    I pray the Coles' have a great new year. See you at EBC soon!!!!


    By Anonymous KS, at 1/02/2008 1:36 PM  

  • Good Morning Rose:


    Welcome back to the discussions. I have appreciated a number of comments you have made in previous threads. One of the most succinct and penetrating was your defense of the biblical Jesus.

    Rose wrote an article titled, Is Christ’s Deity Essential?

    In the thread Antonio wrote, “The Mormon Jesus and the Evangelical Jesus are one and the same. The Mormon's have serious misconceptions and false beliefs about Jesus Christ.”

    This was your reply (snippet), which I sincerely appreciated:

    What are you talking about, Antonio? I have read those points from you in this thread, and about a yr or two ago . . . it was wrongheaded then and is today.

    You should go read the ‘Kingdom of the Cults’ by Walter Martin. There are misconceptions about Christ that actually make Him not-Christ. That’s who Jesus was referring to when He said false christs would come, and that's what I Jn is addressing with gnostic notions of Christ--the point, indeed Christians can have misperceptions about Jesus which then occasions the need to ‘correct’ those misperceptions and paint a clear picture about who Jesus really is.

    Your view compromises the need for correction in these essential areas. I'm sorry, but the LDS Jesus and Christian Jesus are not the same, final.
    ” (Bobby Grow, at 6/15/2007 7:16 PM)

    I am grateful that you pointed the danger and absurdity of such teaching.


    PS: I posted this, with some additional notes, in the original thread.

    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 1/04/2008 9:56 AM  

  • KS,
    Yes these things are disheartening, I agree. We did have a pleasant New Year. Thanks for your visit. When you gonna start a blog?

    Hello Lou. Hope you had fun skiing.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 1/07/2008 9:51 AM  

  • Rose:

    I had a good time skiing. I did not hurt anything important. My youngest (7) and only second time out, was almost ready for intermediate runs after two days.

    BTW, I am preparing an article to discuss, from a biblical perspective, one perspective of how Lordship Salvation spread and grew to the proportions we see today.

    I hope my highlighting those reasons for the growth of LS will serve as helpful lessons and warnings so that the “Crossless” interpretation of the Gospel will not experience the same level of growth in evangelical circles.

    When I read statements like the following from Antonio, “The Mormon Jesus and the Evangelical Jesus are one and the same,” I am reminded that we can never relax and allow for this kind of thinking to gain any additional ground in the hearts and minds of believers or the lost.


    By Blogger Lou Martuneac, at 1/07/2008 12:04 PM  

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