Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Tuesday, December 11, 2007

A Dispensationalist and the Sermon on the Mount!

Often times I hear and read where anti-dispensationalists will accuse a dispensationalist (like myself) of holding that the Sermon on the Mount is not for us today. Because I hold that it is the law of the Kingdom to come, I recognize that some day this will be in full force and will! be! followed! The Premillenial approach accounts for the real teeth of this law.

This Kingdom law will be real and not just "words to live by."
It will have a HUGE and WIDESPREAD effect on people and on this world.

Can this truly be said today about the Sermon on the Mount?

Are you really following it, you who think you are embodying the Messianic Kingdom as a member of Christ's body? I know I am certainly an imperfect manifestation of the Beatitudes, at best. I sometimes hear non-dispensationalists say that the Beatitudes are a picture of a Christian. What Christains are they talking about????? I want to see these people!!!

However, the things in the Sermon on the Mount are great guides for our thinking and attitudes even though the Messianic Kingdom hasn't come yet and this is not "in force" per say.

I want to share with you that I am going through a very difficult time right now over an offense that someone has made to my family. It is thoroughly upsetting. I am wroth about it. Yet, even I, (having been described as holding to a theology that dismisses this portion of Scripture), am finding the following verses to be helpful:
27But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
31Treat others the same way you want them to treat you.
(Luke 6)
And what do you know? I am a dispensationalist! So there you have it - a real life incidence of a dispensationalist who can apply the Sermon on the Mount to their life... and even be guided in their heart by it... all the while recognizing that it's truest application is for a future time.


  • John Walvoord made some good comments on the Sermon on the Mount in his commentary on Matthew.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 12/12/2007 4:43 AM  

  • You go, girl!

    By Blogger Missy, at 12/12/2007 9:18 AM  

  • Hi Rose

    Hope your feeling better, and sorry to hear about the personal offense against your family. In some cases as I have had I had to get a restraining order against a person so they would leave my daughter alone. We must forgive but also protect our families against those people who would harm them.
    I agree with what you say about the Sermon on the Mount. And after I refresh myself on a message that Zane gave on the law, I might have some more comments later.
    God Bless you and your family,,,,alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at 12/12/2007 10:18 AM  

  • Hi Rose, I'm sorry to hear about the offense against your family. You all are in my prayers.

    By Blogger Dawn, at 12/12/2007 11:53 AM  

  • I have heard it said the sermon on the mount in like the constitution of the kingdom of the heavens.

    Rather than bring the standard down by comparing ourselves amongst ourselves, we should look to Christ. The kingdom life is a walk of faith and as such no fleshly endeavour is effectual. Hence the beatitudes seem impossible but really are only attainable as we walk in the Spirit.

    The verses you quoted are really powerful when believers put them into practice. This has often been the case for radical conversions in the muslim world where forgiveness and mercy are completely foreign thoughts.

    By Blogger Jim, at 12/12/2007 11:59 AM  

  • Hi Rose,

    There is a progress in revelation and/or dispensational shift evidenced in all four gospels, and so to shield and/or exempt John's gospel from this truth is theologically motivated.

    By Blogger Jonathan Perreault, at 12/12/2007 12:29 PM  

  • Thanks, Matthew.
    That would be nice to look at.

    Thanks for the visit!

    Yeah, let me know anything you find interesting in that.

    It will be OK in a few days. It is not as bad as it could be.

    Truly the Spirit of God is the only one who can be like those. "As we walk in the Spirit..." indeed. Thanks for the words.

    Where did I mention the gospel of John?? What are you talking about?

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/12/2007 12:33 PM  

  • Jonathan,
    It is nice of you to visit my blog. Was your comment in relation to the post on your blog?

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/12/2007 2:43 PM  

  • Hi Rose,

    You are right in suggesting that I got somewhat off topic. My apologies. I was refering of course to the current debate involving John's gospel, his message of life, and progressive revelation.


    By Blogger Jonathan Perreault, at 12/12/2007 7:05 PM  

  • Hi Rose

    Jon so were to shift to your checklist instead of the simple promise of Jesus uh?

    Rose you just know I have to get my 2 cents in right.

    blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at 12/12/2007 11:04 PM  

  • Hi Rose,here is the conclusion of Zanes message on the “Sermon On The Mount.”
    Matthew’s presentation for his Christian audience is very effective as well. We like the disciples in 5:1 are sitting at Jesus feet to learn something about His future Kingdom and having seen the superlative standards of Holiness we can aim for these in our present Christian life. After all didn’t Paul write in Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
    But even this goal stated by Paul does not place us under the law. Contrary to the opinion of many the law has not been done away with. Jesus did not come to destroy it instead as believers who have been united with Christ in His death burial and resurrection we have passed out of the sphere to which the law applies. But mark it well, this removal from the laws sphere effects only those who have been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. Thereby they have been co-crucified with Christ and raised to live a resurrection life in Him. Paul says this plainly in Gal 2:19-20 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
    This is the true status of all who are in the body of Christ. But just as soon as the Church is removed by the rapture the law will again be enforced for Gods people. First it will be enforced for the believing Jews in the Tribulation period as Jesus makes clear in Matt 24. But after His Kingdom is established it will be enforced for the entire world. And in the Kingdom as the law is enforced in all of it’s details men will be able to learn the lesson it was always intended to convey “ by the deeds of the law will no flesh be justified in His sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” Those who learn this lesson in the Kingdom will have the opportunity to believe in the King for eternal life. Those who do not learn it will be candidates for the rebellion of Gog and Magog.

    My note: Zane when he states that the law has not been done away with as Jesus stated in Matt 5:17,18 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
    Zane sees this as Revelation 21:1
    [ All Things Made New ] Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had PASSED AWAY. Also there was no more sea.
    Also Zane points out that when Jesus said “Don’t think.” Probably the Jewish leaders thought of Jesus as an Antinomion (without law) because He offered the gift of eternal life without the condition of having to keep the law.

    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at 12/13/2007 7:16 AM  

  • Good Morning Rose

    I hope your feeling better!

    I believe Zane’s conclusion brings harmony to the scriptures concerning the law.

    I always struggled with Matt 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. And also with what Paul said in Romans 3:31
    Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
    Also in Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    Then in Romans 7:1 I saw where as long as a man is alive the law has dominion over him. But there is a stipulation in the law that if a woman’s husband dies she can be married to another without being condemned by the law as an adulteress Romans 7:3,4. Then it goes on to show that the believer has died in the death of Christ so that he can live unto God being free from the law.
    To me when Zane pointed out that the law has not been done away with until the old heaven and old earth pass away, that made all the scriptures up above harmonize.
    These verses pulled it together for me Matt 5:18 and Rev 21:1

    Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law TILL ALL IS FULFILLED.
    Revelation 21:1
    Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had PASSED AWAY. Also there was no more sea.

    Well just some thought’s
    Blessings alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at 12/13/2007 9:00 AM  

  • Hi Rose,

    My prayers are with you and your family.

    I empathize with your post about being misunderstood -- I'm frequently misunderstood along with the community I come from. Unfortunately, many times I am the one does the misunderstanding of others. I ask your forgiveness when I've done it to you.

    Blessings to you and your family. I pray that God will grant you renewed strength and grace during this difficult period. You're doing great work in the Kingdom.


    By Blogger Earl, at 12/13/2007 9:44 AM  

  • Rose:

    I obviously missed an important emphasis in your post. I truly hope you and your family are doing ok.

    May the grace of Christ sustain you during this time.

    By Blogger Jim, at 12/13/2007 11:29 AM  

  • Alvin,
    Thanks for those thoughts! We have to account for the words in the Bible making sense together and that is defnitly one way of handling that subject of the law. I really appreciate your pasting that here. I am going to read over it again.

    Hey, thanks for the comment. You are such a reasonable guy. I am still upset by this thing. Our oldest son is in the 6th grade. We are finding out that the parents of other 6th graders are not much more mature than their 6th grade kids.

    Parenting is a real learning experience. It is full of joy, but also full of pain.

    Thank you Jim,
    I appreciate that. As I said, this is not as bad as it could be. It is hopefully a temporary thing. We are having some issues with feeling betrayed by an adult friend in regards to our son. Thankfully, it is not as horrible as some of the offenses that are done against children. Yet... it is dramatic and upsetting for us and our son.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/13/2007 2:00 PM  

  • There is possibly no hurt that affects the heart more than an offence to your child. My prayers are with you, Rose. I am impressed with the maturity you've mustered from this passage.

    By Blogger Missy, at 12/13/2007 2:21 PM  

  • Hi Rose,

    I thought this was an excellent point by Jim here---> Rather than bring the standard down by comparing ourselves amongst ourselves, we should look to Christ.<

    The rest of his comment was good as well.

    By Blogger Only Look, at 12/13/2007 3:44 PM  

  • Alvin,

    You said:

    "Jon so were to shift to your checklist instead of the simple promise of Jesus uh?"

    Alvin, I'm denying your premise because, among other things, it is a false dichotomy.

    Relating to this, please see my comments to Trent
    on Antonio's "Free Grace Theology" blog under the post "Three Resurrection Signs of the Savior". Read my last reply to Trent. It is comment number 40.

    Blessings as you preach "the gospel . . . the message preached to save those who believe" (1 Cor. 1:17-24),


    By Blogger Jonathan Perreault, at 12/15/2007 12:36 PM  

  • Morning Rose. Hope your weekend was a good one. :)

    Alvin, just wanted to let you know that I (finally) addressed your question on the 12/3 Bapstis Press post. :)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/17/2007 9:41 AM  

  • What did Jesus Yeshua Teach?

    Sermon on the Mount and Salvation


    By Anonymous servitus, at 12/24/2007 11:33 PM  

  • Servitus,
    Are you kidding? Do you think I can listen to nine minutes of that voice? That was too weird.

    What I could understand was TIRED and a total missapplication of God's Word. But I am sure you feel very gratified with the use of the phrase "cheap grace." That is really a stupid phrase as I think about it here on Christmas morning. God became a man and lived a perfect sinless life, then went to the cross, taking on the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, yes the WHOLE WORLD (not just those of the elect - as the limited grace model would say - how small! - but HUGE was His sacrifice! - His suffering as HE BECAME SIN). Then.... people like that preacher have that nerve to call this truth CHEAP: that *HE* purchased salvation and offers it - something we cannot earn - freely. That aint CHEAP, brother. That is FREE. There is a huge difference between cheap and free. If we could earn salvation by trying our Sunday School best, that would be CHEAP. Don't spread this message and insult the LORD Jesus Christ by referring to His decision to freely bestow salvation on those who would come to Him His way - casting themselves wholly on Him and counting on themselves for nothing in the salvation equation - as CHEAP.

    Goodbye and Merry Christmas.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 12/25/2007 8:19 AM  

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