Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Wednesday, March 26, 2008

Liver and Onions

Liver and Onions: If Those In Heaven and Those In Hell Have the Same Atonement, Then Why Is One Group Saved and the Other Lost?

Some more interesting thoughts on the limited atonement point of view and its conundrums with those outside it.

9 Comments:

  • Interesting...never looked at it that way.

    By Blogger Jim, at 3/26/2008 12:05 PM  

  • The reason people mess this up is because they haven't understood exactly what happened on Calvary.

    Because scripture in several places teaches us that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, many of us have an image of our sins as disembodied things that are taken out of us, and somehow put onto Christ apart from us.

    But that isn't how scripture paints the rest of the picture.

    Scripture teaches that our Christ bore our sins because we were crucified with Christ through our union with Christ.

    It is because we were in Christ on Calvary, and with Him in the grave, and here is the critical part - and because we were with Him when God resurrected Jesus from the dead - that we know our sins are forgiven. The resurrection declares out uncondemned state.

    That is important because it teaches us not only -why- Christ had to die (he had to die in order to be the ark that would carry His chosen people through God's judgment [i.e. death], just as the first ark carried God's chosen people through the flood), but it also teaches us who it is who has eternal life: those who united together with Christ - that is, those whom the Holy Spirit "baptized -into- Christ (those who were placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit) - only those whom God raised up from the dead by virtue of their union with Christ have eternal life - and that eternal life is -in- Christ. It is His life we become partakers of, and that through our union with Christ.

    Thus, only those who were in Christ were atoned for. If a person was not in Christ, he has not passed through God's wrath (judgment on Calvary) and will therefore have to personally face God's judgment on judgment day.

    If a person was (is) in Christ there is no more condemnation for Him - because he has passed through judgment already, but if anyone is not in Christ that person will not be atoned for.

    Jesus didn't atone for everyone, as though his death were some balm which can be applied to disembodied sins - He was -THE- ark - and only those who were in that Ark passed through God's wrath, and those who were not in Christ did not.

    When the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur to make atonement for all God's children - the High Priest was not making atonement for the Gentiles too. He was only making atonement for Israel.

    In our age a Gentile can be grafted into the promise through faith in Christ - that is, grafted into the atoning work of Christ by faith - grafted into Israel (if you will), but unless a person is so grafted, the True High Priest will by no means make atonement for them, for they are not His people, they were not in Him on Calvary, and as such He did not take them through death and into new life.

    By Blogger Daniel, at 3/26/2008 5:58 PM  

  • Jim,
    Thanks for visiting.

    Daniel,
    The problem I have with your ideas is that the Scripture says that we were children of wrath before we trusted Christ. It speaks in real terms of our having been "not in Christ" before faith. So to say that there was some individual sense in which we were individually in Christ on Calvary before we believed falls short of Biblical reason, IMHO.

    Thanks for visiting! I hope you and your fmaily are well.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 3/28/2008 9:17 AM  

  • Rose, The family is well thanks. I hope you and yours are equally doing well.

    I invite you to read again that passage in Ephesians 2 where Paul says we were by nature children of wrath.

    You see, even in the immediate context that God raised us up with Christ and that God seated us with Christ in the heavenly places, and that all of this was -in Christ Jesus-? (c.f. esp. Ephesians 2:6)

    If being a child of wrath by nature excludes a person from being with Christ on Calvary - how does that person get to be raised up with Christ?

    I don't think I am falling short of biblical reason when I say that we were in Christ. In fact, I would say that failure to acknowledge that we were in Christ would be to turn a blind eye to what scripture plainly states everywhere.

    We are to reckon ourselves alive to God in Christ: Romans 6:11

    There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ: Romans 8:1

    We are one body in Christ: Romans 12:5

    We are simply "in" Christ Jesus: 1 Corinthians 1:30

    We are made alive in Christ: 1 Corinthians 15:22

    We are a new creation in Christ: 2 Corinthains 2:15

    We (Jews and Gentiles) all one in Christ: Galatians 3:28

    We are his workmanship created in Christ: Ephesians 2:10

    We are saints in Christ: Philippians 1:1

    Those who are dead in Christ will rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    We died with Christ: Romans 6:8, Colossians 2:20 Colossians 3:3

    Paul (and by extension every believer) was crucified with Christ: Galatians 2:20

    We were made alive together with Christ: Ephesians 2:5

    We were baptized (immersed) into Christ (as opposed to into water): Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27

    I am already belaboring the point, I am sure, but I hope you will see that scripture, if read plainly, makes the case rather often - we were with Christ, in Christ, baptized into him - with him in death, with him in the grave, and with him in his resurrection.

    That doesn't mean we weren't children of wrath by nature at one time - what it means is that even though we were children of wrath by nature, God took that same nature to the cross and crucified it in Christ. That is what we entered into when Christ saved us.

    It doesn't matter that I was a child of wrath - in fact it was my status as a child of wrath that made me eligible to be in Christ. It is not terribly rational to argue however that because I was at one time a child of wrath, I was not in Christ on Calvary, since scripture plainly states that all believers were.

    Let me know if I haven't overstated that.

    By Blogger Daniel, at 3/28/2008 10:32 AM  

  • I was supposed to click the email alert thing, and forgot. Now I have to post another comment in order to do that...

    By Blogger Daniel, at 3/28/2008 10:34 AM  

  • Hi Rose,

    I hope you had a good Easter break.

    You write: The problem I have with your ideas is that the Scripture says that we were children of wrath before we trusted Christ. It speaks in real terms of our having been "not in Christ" before faith. So to say that there was some individual sense in which we were individually in Christ on Calvary before we believed falls short of Biblical reason, IMHO.

    I am wondering (if you are right) how then we could be said to be "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4)seeing we evidently were not even in physical existence, never mind believers?

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 3/28/2008 5:21 PM  

  • gotta get back to this tomorrow maybe - 'tis late.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 3/31/2008 12:07 AM  

  • Colin,
    I forgot all about this. I did have a thought on it and must have forgotten to share it (not that it matters much) but here goes:

    When that passage says we were 'chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world', I see that as saying that "in Christ" was chosen - those in the state of being "in Christ" are who were determined to be "holy and blameless." He chose us "in Christ." I see this as an undetermined group, or else you wouldn't have evangelism and so many other things that the new testament is full of.

    No one was in Christ until they believed into Him, so what the passage must be saying is that God determined beforehand to choose that those who would be "in Christ" by faith would be holy and blameless before Him in love. ...not that He chose "us" -some special group- and then decided to put us into Christ. IOW, I think the emphasis in the passage is on "in Christ", not "us."

    By Blogger Rose~, at 4/23/2008 9:59 AM  

  • Hi Rose,

    You write: I forgot all about this. I did have a thought on it and must have forgotten to share it (not that it matters much) but here goes:

    There’s me thinking that you had no answer. You can’t keep a good woman down :0)

    I fail to understand why you wouldn’t have evangelism if that was the means God uses to bring in this predetermined group. Why is America voting for a new President in a few months time if the future incumbent has already been ordained by God? If it is going to be McCain, why are Clinton and Obama slugging out a very bitter battle in order, ultimately, to be the most expensive loser on the planet?

    Your order of salvation puts God on the back foot. He is but responding to you. Your faith is becoming the reason or basisfor your election to salvation – not the means of bringing it to you.

    The emphasis is the passage is both on “God” and “us” – God taking the glory and we the benefit of His sovereign love – count the references to “us” and “we” etc., It is not a matter of “either/or” but “both.”

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 4/23/2008 4:56 PM  

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