Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Wednesday, August 23, 2006

Comments for the gospel post below

I thought J. Moorhead had a good idea about writing out the the gospel and posting it so that we could put it in a prominent place on our sidebar. I decided to do this so that whosoever happens upon this blog may read it and be exposed to the Good News.

Feel free to tell me if I may improve this post in any way.

37 Comments:

  • That is a great piece of evangelic writing.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 8/23/2006 12:08 PM  

  • Rose,

    Since the Gospel of John is the "evangelistic" gospel, and the others are discipleship manuals, why not try and write a gospel presentation that uses ONLY John?

    And can you write it out so that it fits in one screen, so the reader doesn't have to scroll down to read it all?

    I think this would be challenging and a fun exercise.

    By Anonymous Bud, at 8/24/2006 12:31 AM  

  • Great work sis!

    By Blogger Kc, at 8/24/2006 3:21 AM  

  • Does not anyone else have any constructive criticism? It must be a near perfect gospel presentation - WOW!


    Hey DF,
    I am thrilled that you think so.

    Bud,
    Maybe I will try that sometime. QUestion: don't you think that there are statements in other books like Romans that are helpful in evangelism? (cause I really do)
    That being said, I do think what you propose could be done and very effectively. I may just try it - in addition to this. Do you have any way to improve THIS post - like a different verse I could use for any given point I am trying to make etc...?

    Thanks for your input!

    KC,
    Thanks, bro!

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/24/2006 11:22 AM  

  • This is pretty good stuff.

    When I am sharing the Gospel with someone, I usually try to bring them Rom. 10:9-10, but that is just one man's preference.

    God bless.

    By Blogger Gordon Cloud, at 8/24/2006 12:43 PM  

  • I didn't see anything about repentance which I think is very much a part of salvation, but you may not see it that way. Just a suggestion. :-)

    By Blogger Dawn, at 8/24/2006 2:23 PM  

  • Hi Gordon,
    I have used that verse much in the past as well, but then I reconsidered it because I wasn't sure that saying something with your mouth is a condition for the average gentile. What if a person is mute? I don't know - maybe that is being too picky, but I was less convinced that it was the best verse for gentile unbelievers, although it is a very powerful verse.

    Dawn,
    Thanks for reading and commenting. When you use the word "repentance" what do you mean? I ask because I can think of two very different meanings that people attach to that word ... and I like to know which one you are using.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/24/2006 2:33 PM  

  • Dawn, if the Gospel of John can get away with missing out repentance, maybe Rose~ can.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 8/24/2006 2:38 PM  

  • Rose, perhaps you know something I don't, (which is very probable), but I do not see that Romans 10:9-10 is exclusive to Jews.

    The epistle is written to "all that are in Rome" and verse 13 of this same chapter states that "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

    As far as a mute person is concerned, I believe that if they confessed Jesus as Lord and Savior with whatever means of communication they normally use, that would fall within the parameters of the spirit of this verse.

    What do you think?

    By Blogger Gordon Cloud, at 8/24/2006 3:37 PM  

  • Rose,

    I like Bud's idea. I will re-read and see what can be done (if anything at all) to this presentation.

    Gordon,

    notice that believing with the heart gains justification and confessing with the mouth brings salvation.

    Salvation in Romans is not salvation as we think of it (an eternal salvation from hell), it is a temporal deliverance from the wrath of God.

    Calling upon the name of the Lord is a Christian activity (look up all the uses in the New Testament). It is an activity with the purpose of appealing to God for our various temporal deliverances.

    Furthermore, you can't call upon the name of the Lord until you have believed in Jesus (How can you call on Him in whom you have not believed?). So rather than it being a concomitant of faith in Christ, it is a subsequent activity for a whole 'nother purpose.

    By Blogger Antonio, at 8/24/2006 4:31 PM  

  • Rose, repentance, to me, means to be sorry for your sin and to turn away from it. It goes hand in hand with believing on Jesus. Which "believe" means to commit to/have faith in/put trust in Jesus.

    I guess what I'm saying is that people need to know that just "stating" a belief in Jesus is not enough. They must commit their lives to Jesus.

    I see too many people who think they are saved, but there was never any real change. They never really made Jesus LORD of their lives.

    What does repent mean to you?

    Matthew, Rose can do whatever she wants. I was just doing as she requested. I think if Jesus commands us to repent, then it is quite alright for anyone else to do so. :-)

    By Blogger Dawn, at 8/24/2006 7:03 PM  

  • Dawn,

    thank you for your honest and sincere answer.

    Is there some objective standard by which to measure whether or not you committed your life enough, made Jesus Lord of your life enough, or repented enough?

    How would you know if you did these things in a sufficient enough increment to obtain salvation?

    By Blogger Antonio, at 8/24/2006 8:25 PM  

  • Antonio: "Is there some objective standard by which to measure whether or not you committed your life enough, made Jesus Lord of your life enough, or repented enough?"

    Is there NO standard, Antonio?

    What does the bible mean when it says that we must believe on the Lord Jesus?

    I'm not saying we have to be perfect, but we are expected to submit ourselves to the Lord; are we not?

    Are you saying that if I was a party animal (i.e., drinking and doing drugs), sleeping around with men and didn't feel the need to go to church or read my bible, that I am saved as long as I agree that Jesus came to this earth and died for my sins and resurrected from the dead? Are you saying that I don't HAVE to stop the partying and fornication?

    Antonio: "How would you know if you did these things in a sufficient enough increment to obtain salvation?"

    Again, are you telling me that as long as someone simply states a surface belief in Jesus and there is no real change in their heart that they are truly saved?

    Who are the ones the Lord tells to depart from Him because He never knew them?

    I humbly submit that if we do not turn from our sin and we have no change of heart then we are not saved. Again, I'm not saying that we must be perfect, but there should be some evidence of the fruit of the Spirit.

    By Blogger Dawn, at 8/24/2006 9:08 PM  

  • Hi Dawn,
    Well, the word "repent" has been thrown around so much as a necessery condition for salvation. When defined as "changing your mind about God" I guess I am OK with it. But, when defined as giving up sin, I don't think that this is a requirement to salvation. Turning from sin and reforming oneself is a good work. I know without a doubt that salvation is by faith and not works, therefore I can't make it a condition for receiving the gospel message.

    I do think "repentance" means turning from sin, in most contexts, and I do think this is what God wants of us. I don't, however, believe that it is a pre-requisite for faith in Christ which brings salvation from the path to hell. It is a good thing to do though. Dawn, when the gospel was presented to me, I was doing the things you mentioned (20 years old). The man told me that I could be forgiven and become a child of God without giving up those things. He said not to worry about them ... God will take care of that. He said "I will tell you this - if you keep it up, it will kill you eventually." I firmly believe He was right in telling me the way he did. If he had insisted that I stop this, or turn from that, I may have passed by from the greatest gift that I have ever received. Yes, my life changed and I am glad, but I do not insist that the things following my salvation are necessarily going to be the same way for everybody else. Human beings are complex. The gospel is simple. God offers a free gift that you and I can do NOTHING, NOTHING to earn. We can't do anything to deserve it ... to measure up to receive it, to hold on to it. All we do is receive it as a child opening a gift from a doting parent. Do you understand why I would not include such a condition in my gospel presentation?

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/24/2006 9:38 PM  

  • Gordon,
    I must be honest with you, I came to that conclusion but now I cannot remember why I thought it. I have been at work earlier and I had run out of breaks and did not have time to read the chapter. I will do that and try to remember why I came to that conclusion. One thing I can say - I am not really dogmatic about it - it is just something I had decided was not the best verse to use. Thanks for the question so I can refresh my memory. If I again figure it out, I will post a comment explaining.

    Antonio,
    I will re-read and see what can be done (if anything at all) to this presentation.

    Is that your way of saying that it may be beyond help, in your view ... or are you saying that it is so good it may need no improvement?! ;~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/24/2006 9:43 PM  

  • Dawn,

    thank you for your comments.

    For all intents and purposes you evaded my questions. Is there a simple answer for either of my questions?

    Let us say, for sake of argument, that I believe that you must make Jesus Lord of your life (in whatever sense that actually means), commit your life to Christ, and repent for eternal life.

    Is there some objective standard by which to measure whether or not I committed my life enough, made Jesus Lord of my life enough, or repented enough?

    How could I know for certain if I did these things in a sufficient enough increment to obtain salvation?

    Thanks for your expected answer to these questions.

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at 8/24/2006 10:50 PM  

  • Rose,

    I will have to re-read to praise and criticize it.

    your friend,

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at 8/24/2006 10:51 PM  

  • Rose, I'm glad you decided to post a prominent Gospel link. Although I disagree about the universal nature of the atonement, I really like your presentation and the narrative form of it. Warm regards.

    By Blogger Jonathan Moorhead, at 8/24/2006 11:10 PM  

  • Dawn, just out of interest, why do you think that John's Gospel does not mention repentance?

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 8/25/2006 3:45 AM  

  • Rose,

    two things:

    I would greatly emphasize eternal life and resurrection

    I would GREATLY emphasize eternal security

    I would quote Christ's simple promises found in John such as John 3:16, John 6:47, etc.

    Emphasize taking Christ at His word: that He promises, no better yet, guarantees eternal life and resurrection to the believer. That this eternal well-being is permanent, no matter what the future of the believer holds.

    Eternal security is part and parcel of the gospel message. Without emphasizing eternal security, they do not have enough information.

    See on my blog:

    Eternal Security is a Necessary Component to the Gospel Message

    I loved the way you wrote the message. Very persuasive, great mental visualization and illustrations.

    Your friend,

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at 8/25/2006 5:06 PM  

  • Rose: "Human beings are complex. The gospel is simple. God offers a free gift that you and I can do NOTHING, NOTHING to earn. We can't do anything to deserve it ... to measure up to receive it, to hold on to it. All we do is receive it as a child opening a gift from a doting parent. Do you understand why I would not include such a condition in my gospel presentation?"

    Rose, I agree that the gospel is simple and that we can do NOTHING, NOTHING to earn our salvation. I really do not want to be combative so I'm going to just say that we can agree to disagree. I will, however, respond to Antonio and Matthew. If you'd like me to do that on my own blog, I will be more than happy to do so.

    By Blogger Dawn, at 8/26/2006 1:45 AM  

  • Dawn,
    Of course, carry on your discussion with Matthew and Antonio, by all means.

    Jonathan,
    Thanks. To me, presenting, as you put it, the universal nature of the atonement is very important, although I would not call it "atonement" but sacrifice, provision, and God's call to all the lost.
    ...Or else the one reading might not realize that it has something to do with him personally, which I know it does, to whoever I speak with.
    Thanks for the warm regards.

    Antonio,
    Your thoughts are great appreciated, and I agree - I need to emphasize that this is a permanent gift. I will revisit the post soon.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/26/2006 10:24 AM  

  • Sally,

    can you put in an order for a few doses of sleep?

    By Blogger Antonio, at 8/26/2006 8:22 PM  

  • Antonio, who needs sleep when you have Phentermine?

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/26/2006 9:32 PM  

  • I think that this was neat in that it is relational and kinda open. God has blessed us each with a unique way of presenting him as he fashions our hearts differantly. It is a neat thing to see.

    By Blogger Bhedr, at 8/27/2006 3:00 PM  

  • Thanks, Brian! I am glad that you read it.

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/28/2006 7:14 PM  

  • Antonio:Dawn,

    thank you for your honest and sincere answer.

    Is there some objective standard by which to measure whether or not you committed your life enough, made Jesus Lord of your life enough, or repented enough?


    Hi Anotnio,
    I’m going to answer your questions and I hope you will answer all of mine.

    Like Rose has stated, we are all very complex individuals and I think God takes our cases on an individual basis. It is not a matter of having repented enough. It is a matter of having repented, period. The rest is up to God and He knows our hearts. If we have truly repented and believed on Jesus then we will produce fruits of the Spirit. We can be fooled by people who appear to have the fruit of the Spirit, but only God truly knows the heart.

    The point is that repentance is a requirement for salvation. It is part of the definition of faith and belief. We must commit our lives to and put our trust in Jesus. We must be sorry for our sin and want to turn from it. We can’t just believe on a surface level, but rather we must believe according to the bible’s definition of belief and faith. Once we have purposed that in our hearts the Lord does the rest. In other words, we repent and yield our lives to the Lord.

    believe (4100, 4102 & 3982) and faith (4102 & 3982)

    4100. pisteuo
    from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
    See Greek 4102

    4102. pistis
    from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

    3982. peitho
    a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

    AntonioHow would you know if you did these things in a sufficient enough increment to obtain salvation?

    If we have truly given our hearts to the Lord, then we will be a changed person. We can have assurance of salvation if we were sincere when we said we believed on the Lord and received Him in our lives. We will see the changes in our lives for ourselves. Some people do a 180 overnight, while others it takes a little more time. But we are ALL ever being conformed to His image. I guess the answer is that we put our trust in the Lord that He will finish the work He has begun in us.

    Titus 2:12-13Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Now, I hope you will answer my questions.

    1) What if I’m the type of person who thinks that if I simply agree that Jesus is God come in the flesh and that He died for my sins and rose again from the dead, but I refuse to repent of my sin because I think that Jesus’ death paid for my sin and I don’t have to repent? You know, as long as I’m a good person who doesn’t steal or kill. Then, hey, I’m in! Right?! Because Jesus is love. I am saved because I walked down the aisle at church and confessed that I am a sinner saved by God’s grace. I may or may not attend church, but I do whatever the heck pleases me because I believe that Jesus is who He says He is. You know, as long as I’m not a bad person. I have no intention of reading the bible, or changing my lifestyle because a) I’m a pretty good person and b) all my sins are already forgiven. Am I saved?

    2) Who is Jesus talking about when He says that some would do this or that in His name, but when they remind Him of that when He sentences them to Hell He says, “Depart from me, I never knew you.” Who is Jesus talking about?

    3) And what does this scripture mean?

    1 John 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    4) Is there no standard as to what Jesus expects of us? I’m not saying that we have to keep the law perfectly because we cannot. But Jesus does expect us to obey His commands when we walk in the Spirit, does he not? What does Jesus mean when He says, “If you love me, keep my commandments”?

    5) What do these scriptures mean?

    1 John 2:3-6And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    1 John 3:23-24And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    Hebrews 10:38-39Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

    Thanks for your expected answer to these questions. :-)

    By Blogger Dawn, at 9/01/2006 10:59 AM  

  • Matthew:Dawn, just out of interest, why do you think that John's Gospel does not mention repentance?

    John may not mention repentance by name, but repentance is part of belief and faith. We must believe/faith in Jesus. See my response above. John is not the only book in the bible and was not meant to stand alone. However, when one reads the gospel of John, repentance is understood. If we are followers of Jesus, we are repentant. Are we not? If we are his disciples, we are repentant. Right?

    Please tell me why Jesus tells us to repent, if there is really no need? (Matthew 4:17; Luke 13:3)

    By Blogger Dawn, at 9/01/2006 11:04 AM  

  • Dawn, when did I say that there is no need to repent? We certainly do need to repent.

    Why? Because we are commanded to.

    We are commanded to be baptized, but this doe snot prove that baptism is essential to believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life.

    God commands men everwhere to repent. Just as He commands men everywhere not to murder and not to worship idols. Avoiding murder and idolatry does not save and neither does repentance.

    Dawn you said:

    "John may not mention repentance by name, but repentance is part of belief and faith. We must believe/faith in Jesus."

    What is the evidence that belief includes repentance?

    "See my response above. John is not the only book in the bible and was not meant to stand alone. However, when one reads the gospel of John, repentance is understood."

    Some have argued that John was written before the other Gospels. Even if it were not we have to bear in mind the fact that the Gospel is written with the purpose of showing people how to find eternal life (John 20:30-31).

    In other words, John is written for those who do not believe.

    If you write something specifically for unbelievers, you are unlikely to presume that thye have some prior understanding of doctrine.

    Do you not think that John might have considered the possibility that his reades might not have read Matthew, Mark, LUke (assuming they had been written before John)?

    If eternal life requitres repentance, would it not be reasonable for John to make this clear, given that this is one of the main themes of his Gospel?

    Your insistence that repentance is involved in faith is purely abitrary.

    Where is the evidence? You have declined to produce any.

    Faith is trust. If I trust my father to do something for me, does it imply that I have repented of any wrong conduct on my part toward him and others?

    Of course not.

    Faith is simply belief that Jesus is the one who provides eternal life:

    John 11:

    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

    In this passage we have the Biblical definition of faith presented very clearly.

    Saving faith is affirming that Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. That is, to believe that He is the sole provider of eternal life.

    To believe is to truthfully answer yes to Jesus' question.

    Jesus says absolutely nothing here about repentance and I fail to see any possible way in which believing that Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life necessarilly entails repentance on the part of the believer.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 9/01/2006 1:44 PM  

  • Matthew, you've made your point. We will have to agree to disagree for now, but I will give it more thought.

    But I'm really curisous as to why you think Jesus told us to repent in Matthew and Luke.

    By Blogger Dawn, at 9/01/2006 9:13 PM  

  • Dawn, I thought I had answered that question above.

    Because repetance is not an option. It is a an act of obediance.

    God cannot bless a believer who is walking in unrepentant sin.

    Do you think that the fact that Matthew and Mark mentions baptism proves that being baptized is a condition of salvation?

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 9/02/2006 2:17 AM  

  • Matthew: "Do you think that the fact that Matthew and Mark mentions baptism proves that being baptized is a condition of salvation?"

    No. :-)

    By Blogger Dawn, at 9/03/2006 4:21 AM  

  • Dawn, thankyou. Then it should be clear that the fact that repentance is commanded does not prove it to be a condition of salvation.

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 9/03/2006 9:25 AM  

  • Matthew, please forgive my unintentional rudeness. I should have thanked you for answering my question! So, thank you for answering. :-)

    I do not see it as being clear that repentance is not necessary for salvation. Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. But like I said, I will think on it some more. :-)

    By Blogger Dawn, at 9/04/2006 9:02 AM  

  • No, it is not necessarilly as obvious as that. Otherwise there would not be so many people who do believe that repetance is essential to salvation.

    But is ought to be clear that the fact that repentance is commanded does not prove it to be essential to salvation.

    God Bless

    Matthew

    By Blogger Dyspraxic Fundamentalist, at 9/04/2006 12:24 PM  

  • Hey guys whether you put repentance after salvation or what repentance is found in John at the very point of the adulterousess deliverance from her accusers.

    "Go and sin no more." sounds like living a life of repentance and I see God delivering her from the punishment of her sin along with the call that could actually be viewed as a promise to being delivered from her canceled debt.

    Go and sin no more. Yes I see repentance in the Bible. I believe God is telling her to fan into flame what has occurred here and promising her that this is what she should do. He has done a work that gives us the power to live a holy life. Amen! Is this not clearly shown in the gospel of John? A new life and a new heart?

    By Blogger Bhedr, at 9/04/2006 6:58 PM  

  • Brian,

    As to John 8, she is called on not to repeat her sin. No general repentance is in view and, in fact, the word is not used.

    As far as repentance in John's gospel is concerned, the lordship people are up a creek without a paddle.

    Antonio

    By Blogger Antonio, at 9/04/2006 10:55 PM  

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