Anatomy of 9-11
I watched a TV show the other night on A&E called Anatomy of 9-11. It was quite an interesting show. The next day, I was with my mother and brother. I was telling them about the program. There were things that happened that day in the Twin Towers that I had not heard of before. I was lamenting the whole terrorist exercise, when my mother sadly said, “Well, it must have been the will of God.”
Somehow this struck me as wrong.
Is terrorism the will of God?
I think not.
I had learned that God has a permissive will and a perfect will.
Then ... I entered the Christian blogosphere. (!)
I have read where some say that this is not the case. They say that God has only one will. According to this view ... and my mother’s ... terrorism is the perfect will of God, since it is happening ... so is murder ... so is adultery, and so on.
The way I have understood these things (since I came to care about them) was that God allows evil, but it is not His perfect will, thus the permissive will and the perfect will.
What think ye?
the END
Somehow this struck me as wrong.
Is terrorism the will of God?
I think not.
I had learned that God has a permissive will and a perfect will.
Then ... I entered the Christian blogosphere. (!)
I have read where some say that this is not the case. They say that God has only one will. According to this view ... and my mother’s ... terrorism is the perfect will of God, since it is happening ... so is murder ... so is adultery, and so on.
The way I have understood these things (since I came to care about them) was that God allows evil, but it is not His perfect will, thus the permissive will and the perfect will.
What think ye?
the END
posted by Rose~ at 9:10 AM
73 Comments:
Those of Reformed theology often quote Amos 3:6
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in the city, and the Lord hath not done it?"
They argue from this verse and others that God ordains the sinful actions of men.
However, this verse needs to be interpreted within the context of God's judgment on Israel and His covenant relationship with them. To use this as a universal model for divine sovereignty is to tear the verse from it's context.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/01/2006 10:55 AM
Hi Sheena.
I definately think that nothing is ever outside of God's control. I think that He allows, causes, or He can stop anything. The Bible teaches that He is omnipotent, all powerful. That is good to know, that He never takes His eye off of our world, He has it under His watchful eye and care.
Matthew,
My mother is most assuredly NOT of "reformed" theoloical persuasion! She is a Roman Catholic, a staunch one. But, it was probably a Reformed blog where I read about the "one will".
Do you see the "permissive" and "perfect" wills in your understanding?
By
Rose~, at 2/01/2006 11:07 AM
Rose, I most definitely agree with you. God is certainly capable of executing judgment, but He is not the author of wickedness.
By
Gordon, at 2/01/2006 12:20 PM
Hi Rose,
I think it's the will of satan being played out in the flesh of the instigators of 9-11. I think He's temporarily given satan license to influence things in the world in such a way.
Todd
By
Todd Saunders, at 2/01/2006 12:31 PM
Yes, I think I can go with that distinction.
God Bless
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/01/2006 2:58 PM
LOL, Susan!!! LOL!!!
Thanks for sharing ... I appreciated that the most!
I have to go home from work, now, but I will say hello and try to make some kind of intelligible remark about everyone else here, later on when the kids are in bed!
Thank you all!
LOL!
By
Rose~, at 2/01/2006 5:50 PM
I'm sure you can guess I'm on the permissive will side. Too many times we have examples of God giving choices and men turning from Him. I would say He has set a limit to that permissivne time though.
By
Kc, at 2/01/2006 7:26 PM
Hi Gordon,
Thanks for reading. He is not the author of sin, but He has made it work for His purpose, right?
Todd,
Satan ... could it be ... Satan!? Yes, I think you are right. I believe that the philosophy that would cause those men to do such things is straight from hell. Is God in control of Hell? Yes, but He is not the author of its ideas. God allows Satan to stir things up. Thanks for input.
Susan,
You are right. I believe people say things about God when referring to tragedy and awful events because it somehow comforts them. The devil pulling people's strings ... that is not a comforting thought. Your story about Lucy was very fitting for my ventures in the blogosphere today. I'm with you about bickering. I don't like it. I do think there are fundamental things that are worth arguing over, but I just always want it to be done kindly. I don't like mean-ness. I don't like hitting people over the head with a lunch box. :~)
kc,
I just realized that this whole post is related to the whole Calvinist issue. You reminded me of it when you said I'm sure you can guess
Argghhhh! I can't escape it, help!
By
Rose~, at 2/01/2006 10:02 PM
Was it God's will for the Babylonians to take Judah into captivity? Was it God's will for Jesus to be murdered?
By
Jeremy Weaver, at 2/01/2006 10:57 PM
Hi there, Jeremy, I mean Doxoblogist,
yes. yes.
By
Rose~, at 2/01/2006 11:51 PM
Or was it His will to allow it?
By
Kc, at 2/02/2006 7:10 AM
opps sorry, I meant to say "Rose, do you think it was His will to allow it?" (grin)
By
Kc, at 2/02/2006 7:12 AM
Hi Rose,
Obviously when sin occurs, such as murder, adultery, etc., God is not the author, so it cannot be an act of His will. That would make Him an accomplice! Paul would put it this way:
"But if . . . we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!
"For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."
(Gal 2:17-18 KJV)
"It must have been God's will that I sinned" is just the lazy, flip side argument of the old Flip Wilson line: "The devil made me do it." It's just another way of dodging personal responsibility.
To settle this, let's go back to the roots. Sin came into the world because man did not listen to God, not because he did. Has any of that really changed?
By
Cleopas, at 2/02/2006 8:17 AM
Is God the author of sin? It cannot be - God is infinitely holy, yet we know that if God has so desire, he could have simple
destroyed Satan instead of casting him out of heaven. He could have made man impervious to sin if He had desired.
It pleased God to permit sin - for reasons we cannot understand.
Sin occurs by his permission and according to His purpose.
He restrains and controls it and can even overrule it for good.
I personally like to think of this with Joseph and the Cross of Christ and Pharoah.
He only permits and directs sin. Man is the person that commits the sin and he it is that solely responsible and guilty of it.
Yet since whatever comes to pass is within his eternal decrees,
sin must be with them is a way which doesn't make him the author. So the question then is; How could a good God permit sin?
It seems to me Paul gives 2 answers:
(1) God has a right to do what he chooses with his own creation (Rom. 9.19-21)
(2) Within God's decrees are decrees of permission; God permits some things of which he is not the author (Rom. 9.17-18). God endured Pharaoh not merely because he had to allow what couldn't be avoided, but for his own purpose of revealing his power, name, wrath, ability, and glory through the events included in the decree to permit Pharaoh's sin. Compare with Gen. 50.20. Think of this with his purposes in hardening Pharoah's heart.
I think the best thing to do in these times when we see evil is remember the story of Pharoah.
The thing is we don't have understanding at the current time to have a full picture of God's current redemptive history or of God's Glory being displayed, so we must pray that God would be saving His people and displaying His glory through these devisting events.
This is the biblical way to think of redemptive history in our day today as well.
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 8:46 AM
Kc,
I think what Jeremy is saying is that God is active in his will coming to pass with the Cross of Christ (It was God's will to crush him). Yes it was allowing it, but also part of his decrees to work through evil men to save a people for himself. There is an active part of that doesn't contradict God being the author of evil and sin.
Most of all through all of this we should stand back and revel at what we don't understand and pray in the midst of evil men triumphing praying that God's glory would be displayed through this. For example, God's work in the midst of Pharoah should be thought of in the following
1) Redemptive history of saving his people
2) The glory of God and judgements of God displayed to the lost man.
3) God also said he work through this so we could tell our children for generations to come.
All of these things happened through the hardened heart of Pharoah, but so we must pray to the same goals.
For example, I don't know God's glory being displayed in the midst of this, but I should pray to that end. Also there are many aspects of God's sovereignty that are hidden from us so we pray and learn to trust in God in the midst of evil men
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 9:19 AM
Susan,
Thank you. You truly want to hold God as perfectly holy and righteous and that is a good goal to have. We must lift that so high as a banner to all peoples. God's holiness and righteousness and greatness. I believe the ultimate purposes that God has is to be bring more glory to Himself.
I'm just trying to wrestle with these things through the reading of the through the bible in a year each year. There is so much of God working through the evils of men's hearts to accomplish his ultimate end and ultimate purposes. For example in Creation see how God describes what he did
Romans 8:20-21 "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God."
This seems to be the purpose God makes in creation for subjecting us to the decay. To show and display the great freedom and God's Glory verses our own. To show forth the purposes of God in seems to always turn back and point to Christ and His Greatness. We will forever be praising God's greatness because of Christ's greatness and overcoming of sin.
Now I don't fully grasp how the whole of creation is subjected to this principle of decay, but I do know that God is showing forth His Glory to the people in this manner the bible clearly explains.
This is why God tells Moses, “Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” This is why Isaiah says, “I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.” He is trying to show us the purposes of His Decrees is to Show His Glory forever..... We need to see the active part of God's activity to accomplish his purposes as well yet in a way that God is not the author of evil and keep the meaning of the text intact. I may blog on this some more at some point, but God has really shown his sovereignty to me in the midst of evil men so much recently in the last 5 years doing a through the bible in a year.
You said "Judah's captivity was brought about because of their disobedience to God? "
In some ways this is very true, however other ways it is because God brought about a drought upon the people to display His Glory in Saving People through Joseph!! Then God directly used this drought to make Pharoah put everyone to slavery and make Pharoah very rich through Joseph's dreams.
Through the captivity, displaying His Glory in the ways I discussed. That's all throughout the scriptures. I can see this in Ezra, working through evil kings to accomplish his purposes. It's so much throughout the redemptive history.
Also God explains exactly why he hardened Pharoah's heart as well.
Let me read this to you.
Exodus 7 "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.”
There are many other explainations from God on why he hardened pharoah's heart in the midst of evil men, this has to be done in such a way as God is not the author of evil in Pharoah and that is quite true. The decrees of permission must be thought of in terms of God permitting sin to accomplish his purposes in the way the bible states it.
The difference today is that we aren't always able to see God working through these things to accomplish his purposes.
What a display of Christ in the old testament through Joseph and setting of free by Pharoah and that should lead to more praise.
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 11:46 AM
Susan,
I read your stuff again and loved this quote of yours. Totally correct!!!
"I don't understand things like the Holocaust or our current terrorist situation (or where it is going), but I do know that God is going to work His purpose through them, in spite of man's evil intent.
Some of this discussion also shows our foolishiness as well because we can believe both aspects of scripture, yet not fully understand every aspect of it, but we can understand what we have been given in scripture. Amen!
It should lead us to hope in Christ and rest in Christ and not lean on our own understanding. I sure have had to reset my mind many times upon this Word in this way.
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 12:13 PM
Has anyone ever considered that
1) God has only one will!
Listen, if God has something called a "permissive will" this is in utter contradiction to His revealed will! Is God schitzo?
Man transgresses God's will, even the saintly and godly Calvinist.
To say that the sin of man is within God's permissive will, is to say that God gives us permission to sin!
Do you see what kind of nonsense you get into?
God gives His permission to sin, but that sin He gives permission to is something that is against His moral will.
God has no such thing as a permissive will!
God has only one will, and that is absolute, pure holiness!
"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
Has anyone ever considered that since God is Sovereign, He can do what He wants?
He created a world with all its starting set of variables and let it go. His will is holiness. His will is faith in the Son. His will is repentance. His will is pure morality.
He does not have a will that permits evil.
Of course He could stop it if He wanted to. But His sovereign will was that man had free-will.
"will" when used of God, talks about His DETERMINATIONS.
When someone says that God has a permissive will in relation to man's sin, that is saying:
God has determined that men should have permission to sin.
Imagine a parent saying: "I do not will that my kids rebel, but I have determined that that they can rebel"
God created Man with a free will. Sin comes from man's will and not in any respect from God's, not even some supposed permissive will.
If God permits that which He can stop, He retains blame. But if He created man in such a way to be fully responsible for His actions, then there is no need for a "permissive will".
It is a warped view of sovereignty that states that God has to have some involvement in EVERYTHING. Why must He? Why have we fallen into this presumptive mind-set? Why can't God's sovereignty allow Him to create in such a way as to give men an absolute Free will that makes them absolutely responsible for their sin, even apart from His permission! Because we have accepted the logic and idea of sovereignty from Augustinians.
God most definitely does not give men permission to sin. He does not permit it. He punishes it. He loathes it.
"permissive" in the dictionary means "granting permission". How can God grant permission to do something He most definitly does not want us to do? That is nuts!
God created man with the ability to make decisions. It was in His foreknowledge that He knew man would sin. But He created them perfect, almost like little "gods". Man chose sin and rebelled. God did not permit them to rebel. To permit someone to do evil makes you evil.
Your daughter is going out with her friends. You say "You may not have any relations with boys tonight, period. But I permit you to have relations with boys tonight"
This is nuts. Crazy.
Can't you see God painted this way with this heretical "permissive will"?
"Man, you may NOT sin, may NOT rebel. You must be Holy, for I am Holy. But I give you permission to sin, be immoral, and be evil"
Has anyone even thought this "permissive will" thing through?
Permissive will is nonesense and plays the soft-augustinian game.
There is no permissive will.
God demands holiness and complete morality.
That man sins, He is responsible for, period! God created man PERFECT and with free will. It was MAN who sinned. God did not permit it.
To be in authority and to permit something is to share in the responsibility of that which is permitted.
By
Anonymous, at 2/02/2006 2:33 PM
Hi Rose.
Very interesting discussion. I think one of the keys to understanding God's "will" is to properly define all the nuances and distinctions in the word "will".
I think Doxoblogist hit on the issue with the Babylonian captivity and Christ's death. For instance, in one sense God does not "will" that you murder someone. Yet in another sense, God "willed" that Jesus was to be murdered. Now while I quibble with the distinctions of "perfect" and "permissive" will to some extent, that is actually closer to the to understanding the distinctions of the word "will" that we often use. There are other distinctions: "declarative will" in which God gives us His law which we are to follow, "hidden will" which is what God has ordained from all eternity that will come to pass, "revealed will" which is what we see providentially happen in history. In other words, "will" is not simply "will" without different senses and distinctions. If we are careful in knowing how the word is defined and nuanced, we will not have as many preplexing problems in discussing God's will -- but we'll still have some puzzles.
By
Earl Flask, at 2/02/2006 2:59 PM
Anonymous, you have completely misunderstood the use of the word permission here.
I am not an Augustinian in the slightest.
God permits in the sense that he does not stop.
I suppose a more Scriptural term would be God's Winking will (Acts 17:30).
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 2:59 PM
Earl/Matthew,
Any comments on my discussions of the scriptures.
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 3:07 PM
Shawn,
Your comments with Scripture has quite a bit of writting that I need to take the time to read. Sorry I didn't do that before. Let me take the time tonight to read it and reflect on it.
By
Earl Flask, at 2/02/2006 3:07 PM
Earl,
Gotcha, makes sense. I don't know how to get this topic into a two point thought as there are vast weighty thoughts in the scriptures on this topic.
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 3:11 PM
I hear the Israeli Fefence Force is pretty relaxed once they get through basic training, Susan.
God Bless
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 5:17 PM
[quote]I quibble with the distinctions of "perfect" and "permissive" will to some extent, that is actually closer to the to understanding the distinctions of the word "will" that we often use.[/quote]
We meaning the Augustinian, or we meaning the common colloquial usage? For your understanding of God's "will" does not seem to parallel common usage.
[quote] There are other distinctions:[/quote]
You paint God having multiple personalities.
[quote] "declarative will" in which God gives us His law which we are to follow,[/quote]
How is it that God's "permissive will" contradicts his "declarative will"? How? Because permissive will is a figment of the Augustinian's imagination.
[quote] "hidden will" which is what God has ordained from all eternity that will come to pass,[/quote]
Oh yeah, this is the one where God determined (fore-ordained) that there be rapes, murders, adulteries, fornications, mutilations, genocides, etc.
Not to mention this is where God determined (fore-ordained) that large set number of individuals to go to hell and the relatively miniscule number to enter glory.
This is God's hidden will. He desires people to go to hell, for he fore-ordained their perdition.
The Bible says that God "wills" greek = thelo that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).
This is His will revealed. But that His will is not accomplished does not mean that He has another contradictory will which usurps it, but that His will is being spurned by the creation.
Your theology would have us believe that God wills that all men be saved but at the same time God wills that most will perish and only some will be saved.
Only in the deductionistic theologies of Augustine and Calvin could such ABSURDITY reign.
The dispassionate hearer of such a contention as the above (that God wills that ALL men be saved yet at the same in his "secret and hidden will" wills that most goes to hell) would conclude that God is at war with Himself and just cannot make up His mind.
Sure, the Calvinist can come up with his wordsmithing in order to "patch up" this NUMBING contradiction, but it is like using Elmer's wood glue on a breach in a Louisiana levee.
The Calvinist God cannot make up His mind, and is in the business of willing things He has already said that He wills against.
Your theology has God pitting one will against another.
The error and confusion dissipates when we realize that God has sovereignly created the world and man in such a way that His will can be spurned.
Sure, God in His sovereignty has pre-determined some events (prophetic history). But just as surely, God, in His sovereignty has allowed men to determine their future and be responsible for it. God has not created a pre-determined world. He has created a free world in which He chooses to participate, influence, and culminate His historical desires, bringing to fruition the end time-prophetic scenarios which are His pleasure.
[quote] "revealed will" which is what we see providentially happen in history.[/quote]
The revealed world of hunger, strife, war, disease, pain, and evil.
Now which one of God's wills wills these things?
[quote] In other words, "will" is not simply "will" without different senses and distinctions.[/quote]
Yeah. The distinctions and different senses actually mean that they contradict each other. This is just more wordsmithing.
The problem is the presumptive doctrine of Sovereignty which has been uncritically accepted by the major majority of Christians.
THERE IS NO DARKNESS IN GOD, NONE WHATSOEVER.
ANY suggestion WHATSOEVER that God gives permission for man to do evil; ANY suggestion that God has willed for specific individuals to go to hell; ANY suggestion that God fore-ordained a single sin:
FATALLY destroys the very nature of God.
It is blasphemy and heresy to claim that God, who is PURE LIGHT without ANY, WHATSOEVER hint of darkness, has put ANY imprint of His will in regards to a contradiction of His complete and moral purity.
To say that God has a will (IN ANY SENSE) that evil and sin abound (which they do in this world) is to lessen completely the view of God that He has revealed of Himself.
He doesn't in one breath DEMAND holiness and in the next permit evil and sin.
This is lunacy.
By
Anonymous, at 2/02/2006 5:18 PM
Earl, as a convinced Non-Calvinist (call me an Arminian if you must), I do not hold to the idea of a 'hidden will' in God. Certainly, God does not make His plans known. However, Calvinists seem to suggest a will in God that is in tension with His revealed will.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 5:22 PM
Anonymous, despite your harsh tone, I suppose I agree with much of your conclusion.
Have you read much Reformed theology? Have you spent much time trying to understand those with whom you disagree?
I think throwing words like 'lunancy' around is rather unhelpful here.
I think the Reformed position is fallacious and lacks sufficent Scriptural support.
However, Reformed theologians have put a lot of effort into trying to understand and uphold God's sovereignty, even if they do not always correctly present it.
I think the Calvinists deserve a little more rspect than you are showing.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 5:29 PM
Anonymous, can I recommend to you 'Systematic Theology' by Louis Berkhof. It is a great systematic presentation of the Reformed position. If you wanted to read something a little more contemporary, I would suggest Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology.
From the Non-Calvinist side, I would recommend a book called 'God's Stratgy in Human History' by Roger Forster. Also, reading 'Lectures in Systematic Theology' by Henry Thiessen would be helpful.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 5:33 PM
Shawn, I agreed with most of what you wrote.
I do not really think I go along with your talk of 'Eternal Decrees', though. I think the concept of an Eternal Decree is not based on plain exegesis.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 5:37 PM
matthew,
I mean Decree in the sense of
Isaiah 46:9-11 (declaring the end from the beginning) . I think a better word might be His Purposes.
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 5:46 PM
Yes, God's purpose will stand and be fulfilled.
I would just understand God's purpose a little differently from Reformed people.
God Bless
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 5:47 PM
Matthew,
Why does every conversation need to end up with C or non-C.
The issue should be what does the bible say and go through the verses together despite what our labels are. I am starting to not like labels because it keeps people from just studying the bible together and getting into the scriptures left and right.
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 5:49 PM
Hi Rose,
Acts 2:23 (New American Standard Bible)
Peter saying,
23"this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."
God's plan, God's will, they may be inseparable. That's what is saying to me anyway. Take care.
By
Todd Saunders, at 2/02/2006 6:12 PM
Shawn, I am sorry if you are offended by my throwing labels about. I suppose, unlike a lot of people, I just love labels.
They do clarify important distinctions.
Nevertheless, I commend your asking my opinion of what you had written, depsite our differences. It was most gracious.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 6:19 PM
Matthew,
I'm not offended by labels at all, but it does tend to get people to not listen to each other and just study the bible together. I just find them useless at times when you just want to get to the heart of a topic because now if you are some C half the room won't listen to you and if you are a NON-C the other half won't listen to you. I say just dig in the scriptures.
To me it doesn't help in the study of scripture together to throw ideas out there.
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 6:32 PM
Shawn, I hope you do not think I do not 'listen' to you.
Susan, I try to avoid the Bible version issue where ever possible and I hope Rose~ does not get mad at me for saying this, but the NIV is not a very literal translation. The word 'will' in those verses might not necessarilly be an exact translation of a particular Greek or Hebrew word.
Forgive me for straying on to this issue, Rose~.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/02/2006 6:35 PM
Anonymous has some excellent points.
The term "will", however it is used, will always have a sense in which it is a person's volitional desire.
Let us put it this way:
God's "permissive will" includes sin.
Let's break that down.
God's has a volitional desire to permit sin.
How else can this be worded?
If God is Holy and CAN stop sin, why does He "will" (volitionally choose or desire) to permit it?
There has to be some nuance that:
1) removes "will" from our construction
2) places all responsibility on man
I think that Anonymous was onto something when he talked about it may be our view of sovereignty that is at fault.
This Traditional mindset requires that everything that happens in time and history filter through God's decretive and volitional will.
Why must it? How come every event must necessarily filter through God? Is God not powerful enough to create in such a way that man's unregenerate actions depend fully on themselves and at the same time be able to have His plans for history pan out by His moral and honorable influence and direction within time?
Couldn't have an all powerful God create in such a way as to retain only one will, whereby His creation, which is wholly outside Himself, has their own wills, which therefore leaves Him blameless?
The tension cannot come in the nature of God's wills, for we are then faced with eternal irreconcialables. I cannot in any way picture a Holy God willing complete conformity to morality, and then willing (in whatever sense)an indifference to it (of either a permission slip or a winking at). I think that yes, God is patient with man's sin, waiting for man to repent. But at the same time of this patience, man is storing up for himself temporal wrath.
The tension must, therefore, come within the relationship of man's will to God. God has one will, and man, more often than not has a completely contradictory will to God's.
God created man's will to be autonomous, so as that they may determine their own course.
When man seeks God's will (by the convicting and leading power of the Holy Spirit) he will be led to the Word of God, to God's will, which is
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
NKJV
I agree with anonymous that to say that God "wills" sin in any sense makes Him culpable.
Antonio
By
Antonio, at 2/02/2006 6:46 PM
Hi Rose,
I saw a couple of long comments from 'anonymous' about God's perfect will, The gist of which was that there is no such thing as His 'permissive' will.
If that were true, it would require our own perfection as well, so there would never be a 'gap' between God's will and our own performance.
But what happens, for example, when the Israeilites fail to believe and enter Canaan? God's perfect will is spoiled by man's failure. Yet He keeps on working with them: the manna keeps coming every day, and He keeps on leading them through Moses. And He completes His intention through their children instead.
Jesus said that those who follow Him shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life. That's an interesting study which we've discussed before. It means that wherever we may go astray, Jesus is the guiding beacon that will show us how to get back on track again. And this is the essence of a merciful, and yes, permissive will, if we fail and need to be restored.
By
Cleopas, at 2/02/2006 6:58 PM
Susan,
Here's the other verse in reference why God Hardened Pharoah's heart. So we may tell our children and grandchildren of the glory of God. (Exodus 10)
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 7:31 PM
Jacob and Esau. It was God's revealed will that Jacob be the heir of the blessings. How did this come about, and what was God's role there?
This is a great discussion. From all sides, even Antonio!:-)
By
Jeremy Weaver, at 2/02/2006 8:51 PM
Hi Rose,
And Cleopas,
Another way of expanding upon the verse you cited is to highlight, instead of the word myself, highlight the word make.
"But if . . . we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!
"For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."
(Gal 2:17-18 KJV)
It is in no way God's will that I sin, I, make (God does not make me trasgress), myself a transgressor.
Sin came into the world because man did not listen to God, he listend to the serpeant. The devil. And then he listened to his own lazy reasonings.
That dosen't make God an author or an accomplice.
Isn't that a fair reading of the verse. Well I realise that was early on in the discussion so that shows you how far behind I am. Interesting discussion so I had to jump back in. Feel free to disregard. Todd
By
Todd Saunders, at 2/02/2006 10:31 PM
Todd,
It is nice the way you say "hi" lately. That is polite. Thank you.
I am behind, as well. I haven't read about the last 22 comments, but I am going to ... later, after the husband goes to bed.
Anyone who wants to can "hang out on my front porch" here and I will catch up with you all later!
By
Rose~, at 2/02/2006 10:37 PM
Hi Rose! ;-0
By
Shawn, at 2/02/2006 10:54 PM
Hi Rose,
And this quote here by anon.
Has anyone ever considered that since God is Sovereign, He can do what He wants?
Reminds me of the verse, "The Lord will have mercy upon whomever He wills..." and I can't remember the rest.
The idea is similar to a message at the end of Job where God message resembles "Who do you think you are, as the thing created, to think that you can know as the Creator". Which is a terrible rendering of the idea, but better vague that false.
My only point is, I'm surprised that that element of God's personality is not factored into more of our conclusions and doesn't come up in discussion more.
Have a nice night.
Inspired, Todd
By
Todd Saunders, at 2/02/2006 11:17 PM
Rose, actually, more tired than inspired. Todd
By
Todd Saunders, at 2/02/2006 11:20 PM
Loren,
you brought this verse to light:
I make myself a transgressor."
(Gal 2:17-18 KJV)
We need more personal responsibility. I think this notion that God has created certain people to be destructive is antithetical to personal responsibility. You create the kind of person you are by the choices you make as you go along. God didn't make you an alcoholic, but if you keep pouring liquor down your throat day in and day out, you make yourself an alcoholic.
You make yourself a trangressor. Good.
Shawn, You said:
we pray and learn to trust in God in the midst of evil men
This is good, too. We must trust that God will fulfill Romans 8:28. Although, that is an interesting scripture to meditate on. Back to your statement. What do we trust God for? I long ago figured out that I can't "trust God" for a lot of the things I would like Him to do. I can't "trust" Him to do things that He hasn't promised. If I go on an airplane, I can't "trust" God not to make it crash. Why? Because He never promised me that I wouldn't die in a plane crash. He might have something in mind for me that is not at all what I would want. Then again, if I think about Roamns 8:28, I know that all things work together for good "to them that love God"... It must be "to us" working for good. We must try to see it that way, knowing that God is not letting anything out of His control.
All that is not to say that He hasn't promised plenty. We can depend on Him to provide a way of escape when we are tempted. We can depend on Him to supply all our "needs" (not wants), etc...
Can we trust Him to keep our child from harm? Well ... we can beg Him.
What do you think of my thoughts?
Susan,
You said:
but I do know that God is going to work His purpose through them, in spite of man's evil intent.
Well put! Susan, I like you. You are welcome and encouraged to come here and comment anytime you like. You have such good and intelligent things to say (witty too) and it is good to see a female blogger who is open-minded and smart.
Anonymous,
You say:
God created Man with a free will. Sin comes from man's will and not in any respect from God's, not even some supposed permissive will.
When I said "permissive will", I was thinking of what God watches going on here, that He doesn't stop. IOW, He knew it was going to happen, but He didn't stop it. I didn't mean that He said "well, OK, go ahead then, I'll permit it."
You really bring up some good points, though. Thank you! Your perspective is not common on the Blogdom of God.
Earl,
It is good to see you. I had forgotten about some of those terms. You are right, and we have discussed this before. "Will" can mean a lot of things. Desire, intent, purpose, command ...
Earl, you're looking fine these days. :~)
Matthew, you brought up this verse:
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
That was an interesting contribution. God "overlooked" ignorance. I hadn't honed in on that verse before. I think I will read that chapter tonight.
God permits in the sense that he does not stop
That is how I meant it, too.
Susan,
The way you explained it is exactly as I see God and mankind, except, God could truly put an end to all the foolishness and "CONTROL" things right now if he wanted to (we can't lawfully do that with our children). For some reason, he lets it go on. Like Shawn says, for His greater purpose, which, like Earl says, may be hiddden.
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 12:23 AM
Anonymous, you say:
The error and confusion dissipates when we realize that God has sovereignly created the world and man in such a way that His will can be spurned.
I agree with Matthew, your tone is a little harsh. You kind of remind me ... of me, though. I went on a blog one time as "anonymous" and had a very challenging tone. (it is kind of fun, isn't it?)
Your words are ... so refreshing, though. You think just as I have thought before I started reading Reformed writings and sitting under a reformed pastor (with a little "r", he says). I think what you say has a certain ring of truth. It recognizes the goodness of God, which I think is really lacking in the harsh, Calvinistic (Augustinian, as you say) model of things. Why don't you email me? I would love to know who you are. rcole@ambt.net
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Rose~, at 2/03/2006 12:29 AM
My anonymous stint was before I started this blog, just for everyone's information. :~)
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 12:30 AM
Hi Todd,
This discussion does cause a lot to spin around in the head, does it not? Thanks for the verses you shared and your thoughts.
Antonio,
Great thoughts. Thank you for sharing them. I think you are right about the possibilty that we have the wrong definition of sovereignty. You have pointed that out to me before. God bless.
Hi Cleopas,
You should read anonymous' comments completely. (It doesn't sound like you did ... especially the second one.) I would like to hear what you think about it. Good to see you around .. er, um, I mean ... where's Loren?
Doxoblogist,
I want you to answer your own question. Will you? Please share your thoughts. Oh, and get your head . . . .
:~)
Hi Shawn!!! Thanks for that!
Now I am going to bed.
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Rose~, at 2/03/2006 12:43 AM
Doxoblogist,
That is one weird picture (I refuse to use the Hindu concept of 'Avatar' in this context).
'Jacob and Esau. It was God's revealed will that Jacob be the heir of the blessings. How did this come about, and what was God's role there?'
God chose Jacob because He is God and can choose whoever He likes.
However, there is not a single verse in the Bible about God ordaining the profanity and fornication of Esau. Jacob's blessings did not depend upon Esau's wickedness. Esau should have been humble and accepted that God had chosen Jacob to inherit the promises.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/03/2006 4:42 AM
Rose,
I'd be interested to note your interpretation of the texts I brought up.....
I've seen on this blog lots of comments on how we think God does in His Sovereignty over evil men, but wondering how the way we thinks is affected by God's Word.
By
Shawn, at 2/03/2006 5:12 AM
Rose and others,
If you want to study more on God's overruling for His good purpose and work in the midst of evil men I would recommend these verses in context.
Acts 2:23 Acts 4:27-28 Acts 13:29, 1 Pet 2:8; Jude 4; Rev 17:17; Gen 37:28; Ps 17:13
Job 9:5-6; 11:9-11; 37:6-13; Acts 14:17 1 Chron 16:31; Prov 21:1 Job 12:23; Is 10:12-15 Daniel 2:21; 4:25 I Samuel 2:6; Psalm 18:30; Prov 16:9; Is 45:5; Luke 1:53 2 Samuel 16:10; 24:1, Psalm 76:10; Romans 11:32, Acts 4:27-28
Something I was praying for each of us today ... specially me was the follow verse.
Eph 1:17-18 "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,"
By
Shawn, at 2/03/2006 7:28 AM
Anonymous,
You sure like to pigeon-hole people without taking the time to understand what they are saying. Well, that's okay by me, I do the same :o). I pigeon hole you as smushing together people's usage of "will". For you, "will" is "will" is "will" as you define it. Which, that's okay be me too. It means in discussions with you, I don't use the term "will" in the other senses because you find those uses of the word "will" unacceptabble.
Antonio -- I liked your distinctions on "will" and "sovereignty". It's actually not too far from my own usage.
Shawn -- I had computer problems last night, so I didn't do the promised reading of your comments.
Rose -- as usual, you are gacious and doing a great job.
Others, I snuck off from work to do this, I got to go back to work.
By
Earl Flask, at 2/03/2006 11:17 AM
Shawn,
you said:
I've seen on this blog lots of comments on how we think God does in His Sovereignty over evil men, but wondering how the way we thinks is affected by God's Word.
Read back over my comment, they are all based on the Word and how I apply that to life. Then again, I haven't meditated on the specific scriptures you brought up. I will look at them on my lunch break. Bless you.
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 11:24 AM
Matthew,
will you explain the Hindu "avatar"?
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 11:25 AM
The word 'avatar' is derived from Hinduism. It refers to the incarnation of one of their deities.
God Bless
Matthew
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/03/2006 11:57 AM
Rose,
Yes I read your statements bout Romans 8 and that was good. When I mean trust God I mean that His name would be glorified in the most devistating circumstances even when we can't view the true results in His Grace to overrule what Evil men do.
We should probably view what happens with Pharoah's in this present day we should view them sort of like the way God it to Moses even though we can't view the exact purposes in what is happening now. We do know what God has said in the past so we pray to that end.
This is what we believe to be true of when evil men do evil things --------- we trust the redemptive history aspects--I mean the fact that God is saving for himself a people who adore him willing to see Him as glorious forever praising God and his salvation, the fact that God is glorified in weaknesses and frail saints, the fact that evil people can kill the body but can't destroy the soul, the fact that God will be vindicated on the day of judgement, that God will wipe away every tear from our eyes, their will be a day coming when God destroys all of his enemies, the fact that God will overrule this for good, the way Joseph can say and we can pray "you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.". This is all I'm trying to say is that when we see evil men do things like this.
Let's pray that we don't run to the tendency to ring up our hands in frustration and not see the true eternal realities without the eyes and ears of faith.
That's what I want in my life is Trusting of God's eternal purposes being accomplished through the world in the midst of devistating events praying to be seeing the true eternal realities.
I just mean for all of our own good, it just to me seems to help discussions if we stay in the Word, because these things will continue to sharpen our eyes and ears of faith and trust and reliance upon God for all things rather than our frustration for some one ideas.
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Shawn, at 2/03/2006 12:11 PM
Shawn, you said:
I'd be interested to note your interpretation of the texts I brought up.....
I assume you mean the Exodus passage.
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart,
What does that mean? Does that mean that God caused Pharoah to be rebelious, or that God brought out something that was already in Pharoah's heart ... that God lifted some of His general grace so that Pharoah would be given over to his true, underlying intentions? It is tricksy language, I would like to see the Hebrew meaning of the words for "hardened Pharoah's heart".
Pharaoh will not listen to you.
This is Pharoah's doing.
Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.
This Gods's hand of judgement for Pharoah's evil.
The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.”
This is God's greater purpose in it all!
That is my interpretation mixed with questions. Is there anything else, Shawn? I hope you are having a good day.
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 2:02 PM
Sound thoughts, Rose~.
By
Matthew Celestine, at 2/03/2006 4:14 PM
God loves us enough that He will not treat us like puppets, directing our every thought, move, etc.
He abhors sin--in fact, cannot be in the presence of sin, and surely is saddened and/or angered when we do sin.
He calls us out of our human frailty and faults, to a higher plane on which we submit fully to His will for us. And because He's God--completely beyond our ability to comprehend--His ultimate will is destined to be fufilled, even if we do nothing to further it.
Clear as mud, right?
By
Jeff H, at 2/03/2006 5:22 PM
In the hebrew the words mean "I will harden Pharoah's heart". That's why they are translated that way. That is also the way Paul understood them.
"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."
(Rom 9:17-18)
By
Jeremy Weaver, at 2/03/2006 6:19 PM
Doxoblogist,
I get that it was God doing it, that is clear, but what does "harden" mean? Does it mean "make rebellious". Or does ir mean "flush out" or does it mean "make angry". That is my question.
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 6:27 PM
Hi Jeff H.
Thanks for visiting. Your thoughts are similar to my own. Clear as mud!!!
WHAT HAPPENED TO ANONYMOUS? COME BACK, ANONYMOUS!
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 6:28 PM
חזק
châzaq
BDB Definition:
1) to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to be strong, grow strong
1a1a) to prevail, prevail upon
1a1b) to be firm, be caught fast, be secure
1a1c) to press, be urgent
1a1d) to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)
1a1e) to be severe, be grievous
1a2) to strengthen
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to make strong
1b2) to restore to strength, give strength
1b3) to strengthen, sustain, encourage
1b4) to make strong, make bold, encourage
1b5) to make firm
1b6) to make rigid, make hard
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to make strong, strengthen
1c2) to make firm
1c3) to display strength
1c4) to make severe
1c5) to support
1c6) to repair
1c7) to prevail, prevail upon
1c8) to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support
1c9) to hold, contain
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to strengthen oneself
1d2) to put forth strength, use one’s strength
1d3) to withstand
1d4) to hold strongly with
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 636
By
Jeremy Weaver, at 2/03/2006 6:38 PM
The Septuagint uses the same greek word in Exodus 4:21 as Paul uses in Romans 9.
σκληρύνω
sklērunō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make hard, harden
2) metaphorically
2a) to render obstinate, stubborn
2b) to be hardened
2c) to become obstinate or stubborn
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4642
Citing in TDNT: 5:1030, 816
By
Jeremy Weaver, at 2/03/2006 6:44 PM
Ex. 4:21; 9:12; 10:20; 10:27; 11:10; 14:4; 14:8; 14:17 all have the agent of the "hardening" as God. The word used here is "chazaq", which means "strengthen/make firm".
Pharoah set his heart against God. At the outset God declares “I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go…”. (3:19)This was Pharoah’s disposition from the very beginning before a word was said about God hardening his heart. Pharoah was an evil man who had long abused the people of God. He selfishly desired to protect his own interests by keeping these people as slaves.
Nevertheless, the time came when the plagues that were judgments upon Egypt were so terrifying that, contrary to what he wanted to do, Pharoah was ready to let Israel go – not from genuine repentance, but out of the abject fear of further plagues. God, however, was not finished judging the gods of Egypt. Therefore, He hardened Pharoah’s heart by giving him the courage to persist in the resistance he really wanted to pursue, and the courage to do so until God had fully executed His judgements upon Egypt’s gods, bringing forth "the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments" (Ex 7:4).
God strengthened Pharoah’s resolve; God was not causing Pharoah to be an evil man or to do evil actions, but was giving Pharoah the strength and courage, even when the plagues became overwhelmingly terrifying, to stand by his intent not to let Israel go. God emboldened Pharoah’s heart so that he had the stubborn courage to stand even in the face of very frightening miracles.
Not that anyone is saying this, but, to suggest that God's hardening prevented Pharoah from genuine repentance would be rubbish. God does not want anyone to physically die because of their sin; he wants them to come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).
John Piper himself acknowledges “A precise analysis of the verb forms reveals that before the first active assertion of God’s hardening in ex 9:12 there are two assertions that he [Pharoah] hardened his own heart and after 9:12 there are two assertions that he hardened his own heart. What follows from this is that Pharoah’s self-hardening is equally well attested BEFORE and AFTER the first statement that God hardened him” (The Justification of God, 163).
He does not come to the same conclusion as I do, because he uses his theology to interpret the Scriptures here, yet he acknowledges that twice Pharoah hardened his own heart both before and after "the first active assertion of God's hardening..."
God did not cause Pharoah to sin (nor has he ever done so for anyone). God arranges circumstances and events in order to use other people's evil actions and intentions to fulfill His will. It is both biblical and reasonable to affirm God's ability and sovereign right to arrange circumstances and to position on the stage of life those players whom He foreknows, so that His will is effected in human affairs; doing so without violating their will or encouraging (much less becoming accesory to) their crimes.
Antonio
By
Antonio, at 2/03/2006 7:44 PM
Thank you, Jeremy. Where did you get that? Is that from E-Sword? I have not learned how to use that yet, and I hadn't have a chance to hook up with John, who does know some about the E-Sword.
I sort of sounds to me from reading that info on the word for "harden" that God was causing Pharoah to be firm in his mind. ... that God was "setting Pharoah's jaw", so to say. God was strengthening Pharoah's resistence.
Also, I noticed in verse 14 it says:
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go.
So, it seems God is laying the blame on Pharoah's heart for his stubborness, but at the same time, saying the He, Himself is hardening Pharoah in that stubborness. It is an interesting study.
I tend to agree with Antonio's comments, don't they make sense to you?
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 8:09 PM
Antonio,
Do I see a shadow of a man's face behind that book?
:~)
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 8:10 PM
Antonio,
Thanks for your comments. They make sense to me.
By
Rose~, at 2/03/2006 8:10 PM
Hi Rose,
What a great bunch of comments.
Hey Antonio,
I'd heard Les Feldick refer to the later instances of Pharoah's heart being hardend and I was a little surprised as he did not really elaborate as to why he put the responsibility on Pharoah. Thanks very much for your explanation. Very helpful.
Doxoblogist,
Thanks very much for your rounding out of that comment on "will" as well, as well as your humor.
Todd
By
Todd Saunders, at 2/03/2006 10:44 PM
Hi Rose,
Oops, I think I was imagining something that wasn't there with regards to the humor in my last comment. I'm sure that was a puzzling remark I made. I had some real tough horses on thurs. and fri. and am so worn out that I probably shouldn't be commenting in public when I get tired. Todd
By
Todd Saunders, at 2/04/2006 10:03 AM
I think this discussion is helpful because it will keep us trusting and hoping in God through all circumstances.
The truth is that the Bible teaches that God is perfectly good and Holy, and that man is the author of evil and the Bible teaches that God is in control and is working through all things to accomplish His good pleasure (Job 42:2; Ps. 115:3; Isa. 14:27; 43:13; 46:10; Dan. 4:35; Eph. 1:11).
I think it was Puritan Thomas Watson once commented that our understanding of the events of our lives on this side of life is like looking at tapestry while it is yet being made.
Looking at the piece of cloth from underneath, we see all these knots and snarls that seemingly have no pattern – governed by nothing more than uncontrolled and random chance.
But if we look at the top side of the tapestry, the beautiful work can be seen. When we finally can see the finished work of the weaver we can finally see the project for all its beauty.
This is my hope and prayer for all of us is that it would increase our faith. That in our prayers we could see God as he declares himself in the bible and we would think and talk like the bible does on this topic.
I think as our discussion and talking in the body of Christ reflects the bibles teaching on this it will help the body of Christ have more hope. Let's not live like the lost with no hope. We all know we are prone to this hopeless thinking in the middle of evil circumstances.
Proverbs 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails".
By
Shawn, at 2/04/2006 10:47 AM
Another thing I would suggest that has helped me out so much in the last 5 years. I recall not having alot of hope from God before this probably because I wasn't constantly reading through the whole bible and was only mostly reading the new testament sadly before that and look through the events of life with eyes and ears of faith.
When reading through the bible in your devotions try to recognize these kinds of conversations in the bible.
The bible is so full of God's sovereignty in the midst of man's evil and other things. I can think of at least one hundred verses I have compiled over the years to help me put my hope in God.
It seems to help see such a facinating story of God's redemptive history and God's glory and God's purposes being accomplished. I mostly pray and hope we can see that today in our everyday life.
By
Shawn, at 2/04/2006 10:57 AM
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