Let's be reasonable with one another, shall we?

Tuesday, August 05, 2008

Relational Words

25 For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. (Luke 9)
If the person in this verse is an obvious unbeliever, an unsaved person, a 'non-elect'.... why would Jesus say He will be ashamed? Why would Jesus be "ashamed" of someone who was not His own? Elsewhere, we have Jesus just telling those who don't belong to Him to depart from Him because He never knew them. I wonder if the words "will be ashamed of him" describe a more relational attitude toward these ones.

24 Comments:

  • Indeed.

    By Blogger Celestial Fundie, at 8/05/2008 9:57 AM  

  • Good morning Rose

    Indeed, indeed!

    By Blogger alvin, at 8/05/2008 10:16 AM  

  • Hi Rose,

    Sometimes I am ashamed of people whom I do not know. I am ashamed, for example, when British soccer hooligans go on the rampage in Europe. I am ashamed because they carry my national flag with them in their terrorising of others.

    The Lord Jesus will be ashamed of the non elect because they are His - not by redemption (i.e. they are not redeemed) but His by creation. "By Him were all things made" etc., (John 1:3)

    Just a thought from the Atlantic Mainland :o)

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 8/05/2008 10:18 AM  

  • Rose, I don't know if you know it or not, but Calvinist can't do that because they don't have a free-will.

    The Westminster Confession states: "They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the degree of election. (Op.cit.,XVII:i,ii)

    goodnight all
    alvin

    By Blogger alvin, at 8/05/2008 10:41 AM  

  • Alvin,
    the Calvinist can't do what? Make God ashamed?

    I love ya, Alvin, but let's make sure we are nice :~) even if we feel like being snippy. :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/05/2008 11:24 AM  

  • Excellent point, Rose. Thanks for purnt'n this out!

    By Blogger David Wyatt, at 8/05/2008 1:09 PM  

  • Hi Rose

    Maybe I was a wee bit sarcastic, so maybe they can be a "wee bit ashamed." But that's only if they were living in Geneva! That iron fist helped keep them in line. It's always good to have a Pope around.
    There I go again, just take me with a grain of salt today, it must be the Irish coming out in me!

    Toot-a-loo!! and hip! Hip!

    al . . .vin

    By Blogger alvin, at 8/05/2008 7:17 PM  

  • Hi, Rose. This is an excellent point.

    Colin, if I may respectfully point something out, Jesus' shame in this text is not based upon whether or not He knows these people, but is a direct response to their being ashamed of Him.

    How could they be ashamed of Him if they had no relationship with Him? The context of this verse indicates that their shame comes from attempting to appease the world and at the same time maintain fellowship with Christ. Peter tried this and as we know it didn't work very well.

    It seems pretty clear to me that this verse is well within the parameters of relationship.

    By Anonymous GordonCloud, at 8/06/2008 12:36 PM  

  • Hi Gordon,

    I assume then that you entertain thoughts of a true believer losing his own soul, as suggested by the context?

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 8/06/2008 3:25 PM  

  • Great observation Rose! No comment for me.. at least right now.. I just want to get the comment feed :)

    By Blogger Kansas Bob, at 8/06/2008 7:00 PM  

  • Colin, the word soul can also be translated 'life.'

    'For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses his life?'

    'He that findeth his soul shall lose it: and he that loseth his soul for my sake shall find it.'

    The word same word 'psyche' is used in both.

    By Blogger Celestial Fundie, at 8/07/2008 1:24 AM  

  • Colin, you would assume too much. ;-)

    By Anonymous GordonCloud, at 8/07/2008 1:45 AM  

  • Matthew: Is this eternal life then losable (to coin a word)?

    Gordon: That's why I asked :o)

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 8/07/2008 7:06 AM  

  • Colin, who said anything about eternal life?

    Life can mean a lot of things.

    By Blogger Celestial Fundie, at 8/07/2008 3:27 PM  

  • Matthew: How would expound this word "life/soul?" as in our text?

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 8/07/2008 3:40 PM  

  • Colin, I think the idea here is quality of life.

    'He that finds his life/ soul shall lose it, but he that loses his life/ soul shall find it.'

    The man who has much of the world's good has a quality of life that is good, but he will ultimately lose that quality of life in time. Yet if he is willing to give up that quality of life now, he can gain a quality of life in the kingdom that is far greater.

    Every Blessing in Christ

    Matthew

    By Blogger Celestial Fundie, at 8/08/2008 10:08 AM  

  • David,
    Thanks for visiting. I am glad you think it is a good point.

    Gordon,
    The context of this verse indicates that their shame comes from attempting to appease the world and at the same time maintain fellowship with Christ.
    I agree. Thanks for the participation.

    Goodnight,
    Would you be willing to consider that Matthew may be right?

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/08/2008 10:24 AM  

  • Matthew,
    I think you are right.

    Bob,
    I enjoy reading comments too - especially the pithy ones.

    Goodnight,
    SO you are saying that it is the relationship of Him as the Creator. He will be ashamed of them because they are ashamed of Him who created them. Therefore He rejects them from His presence. Is that right? Looking at the context, this shame doesn't seem to be an emotion that can be applied to any person ever. Look who he is talking to: 18Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, "Who do the crowds say I am?"

    This is a very intimate setting. I don't think He was warning *these* of the threat of Hell that is upon all men who don't have Him in their lives.

    I am sure you can see this!

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/08/2008 10:30 AM  

  • Good morning Rose,

    I'll get back to you on this one. Things busy here as the debate with Alvin on the other blog has taken up all my time for blogging!

    Would you be willing to host a debate on the question about Pilate as proposed there?

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 8/09/2008 6:17 AM  

  • Rose/Matthew:

    I’ve had a more in depth look at the passage in question. While Matthew the tax Collector [Not Matthew the drug’s counsellor from England :o) ] seems to limit these words to the Disciples (16:24) Luke interjects a more general audience (v34) which is wider than the private audience of his disciples which Rose limits the audience to in v18. Mark has the general “the people” being addressed. So the words seem to have a general application here.

    I find it hard to believe that the idea of the soul as “pysche” can be reduced down to meaning a mere standard of living. It seems to reduce the whole impact of the statement. Is it true that if I inherit great riches and a business empire etc., that I will lose out with God if I don’t sell everything I have and, after retaining some money to put food on the table, put the rest into Christian work and print Bibles etc.? Is it necessarily a sin (leading to loss of rewards) to be rich in this world’s goods? Define rich? I am not a rich man if measured by many Christians who own a bigger car than me, own their own home and can afford to go on expensive holidays every year. Yet I am not poor by any means. I eat well and (at the moment) we actually have two cars. But I am very rich compared to many Christians (say in Africa) who can hardly scrape together a decent meal even once in the day.

    I wouldn’t be as dogmatic on my interpretation as I would on others that I defend on this blog.

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 8/09/2008 12:10 PM  

  • OK, Colin, so you are not going to insist that "the Son of Man will be ashamed of him" means those ones are sentenced to eternal damnation.

    For me, looking at these kinds of pasages with a more critical eye has made me more concerned about my own behaviour. Very recently, I would have assumed this referred to hell... and I knew I wasn't going to hell because I understand that I am saved and am not in danger of this. Therefore, this verse held no warning for me. I now see how ridiculous that is. He is speking to his disciples here, for sure the way it is expressed in Luke. If He would warn **them** thus, why would I put myself above this warning by assuming it is only for the unsaved?

    Saved people are capable of all sorts of sin! Denying Christ is not above what a saved person could do ... as Gordon pointed out with Peter.

    As to your questions Is it true that if I inherit great riches and a business empire etc., that I will lose out with God if I don’t sell everything I have ?

    No one is saying that. This is about denying Christ and being ashamed of Him.

    For example: Say I have an obscenely welathy relative. I neglect to speak of Him, or even shy away from telling of Him, so I can be popular with this relative, hoping that she will share with me her money. It works... and then I spend my life basking in that wealth. Jesus is saying that He will be ashamed of my having wasted the opportunities I had to make an impact for Him, just so I could selfishly enjoy money. That is how I see this principle He lays out.

    It is not impossibale for a child of God to be this selfish. If you say so, then what do you do with all the warnings of Scripture for children of God?

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/11/2008 8:49 AM  

  • Hi Rose,

    You ask: It is not impossible for a child of God to be this selfish. If you say so, then what do you do with all the warnings of Scripture for children of God?

    Simple answer: I heed them. I am kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (1 Peter 1:5) One characteristic of the faith which God's power utilises is that it heeds the warnings and obeys the instruction.

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 8/11/2008 9:09 AM  

  • Colin,
    You said:
    One characteristic of the faith which God's power utilises is that it heeds the warnings and obeys the instruction.

    I agree. The thing is, though, does the saved person always walk by faith? We both know the answer is no. Your position has no clear timeline past which "not walking in faith" means that the person never had saving faith.

    :~)

    By Blogger Rose~, at 8/17/2008 2:53 PM  

  • Hi Rose,

    Perhaps one reason why there is no "clear time line" is so that we may not assume. Assumption (of course) is not the same thing as assurance. Just as Paul exercised to have his conscience void of offence towards God and men, (Acts 24:16) so should we. Not that we are either saved by works or kept by works, (an unnnecessary reminder for us both, I know) but there is no room in the Bible for us either to sit back in carnal "security." A professing Christian who is constantly asking how much he can get away with and still remain a Christian has big spiritual problems. The only answer to encourage him back to a walk with God, which is the judgement of charity. Again: the problem is not somuch if we fall short (which we all do) but this is on the assumption that at least we are aiming straight.

    Regards,

    By Blogger GOODNIGHTSAFEHOME, at 8/17/2008 3:20 PM  

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